Melinda,
I tend to agree with you that Franklin would enjoy having his daliances
given air whereas Jefferson had more reason to be ashamed of his behavior.
Anne
Anne Pemberton
[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/apembert
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melinda Skinner" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
Barger's opinion
> The disappointing difference, I propose, is that Franklin would probably
> enjoy having his dalliances and social adventures discussed; while
> Jefferson would be humiliated. It's just not as much fun.
> -Melinda
> --
> Melinda C. P. Skinner
> Richmond, VA
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the
>> scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that.
>>
>> Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a
>> fallen "great".
>>
>> Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were
>> said to be "grateful".
>>
>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>
>>
>> On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>
>> > Lyle,
>> >
>> > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I have
>> > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then, likely,
>> > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the evidence
>> > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced
>> > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint
>> > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend
>> > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson continued to
>> > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as illustrated
>> > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own
>> > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby.
>> >
>> > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation
>> > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far
>> > as the integrity issue is concerned.
>> >
>> > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and the
>> > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his
>> > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as
>> > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been
>> > made clear -at the birth of a new nation.
>> >
>> > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his
>> > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for
>> > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican form of
>> > government.
>> >
>> > Anne
>> > Anne Pemberton
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> > http://www.erols.com/apembert
>> > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning"
>> > <[log in to unmask]
>> > >
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM
>> > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
>> > Barger's opinion
>> >
>> >
>> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a
>> >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to
>> >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have
>> >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as
>> >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been
>> >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the
>> >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist
>> >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a
>> >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with
>> >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does
>> >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person did
>> >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans
>> >> were Nazis.
>> >>
>> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
>> >>
>> >> Lyle Browning, RPA
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Lyle,
>> >>>
>> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly
>> >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's
>> >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories.
>> >>>
>> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the
>> >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the
>> >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
>> >>>
>> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
>> >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
>> >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the
>> >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered
>> >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
>> >>>
>> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later:
>> >>>
>> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a
>> >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In
>> >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and
>> >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its
>> >>> defense."
>> >>>
>> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
>> >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs.
>> >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried
>> >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact
>> >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the
>> >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall,
>> >>> to reclaim his honor.
>> >>>
>> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many
>> >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish
>> >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for
>> >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter about why
>> >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return from
>> >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable
>> >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as executor of
>> >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her under
>> >>> in the event the he met an early demise.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
>> >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
>> >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
>> >>>
>> >>> What goes around comes around.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this
>> >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find
>> >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will
>> >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in
>> >>> recent days, to the lie.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anne
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Anne Pemberton
>> >>> [log in to unmask]
>> >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>> >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning"
>> >>> <[log in to unmask]
>> >>> >
>> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page
>> >>> in Barger's opinion
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
>> >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting
>> >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically.
>> >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that
>> >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11
>> >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the
>> >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA
>> >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
>> >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one
>> >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas,
>> >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who
>> >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up
>> >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man
>> >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point
>> >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes
>> >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose
>> >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and
>> >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science
>> >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by
>> >>>> posturing in one direction or another.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH,
>> >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to
>> >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic.
>> >>>> May you live by those words as well.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ______________________________________
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