Melinda, I tend to agree with you that Franklin would enjoy having his daliances given air whereas Jefferson had more reason to be ashamed of his behavior. Anne Anne Pemberton [log in to unmask] http://www.erols.com/apembert http://www.educationalsynthesis.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melinda Skinner" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in Barger's opinion > The disappointing difference, I propose, is that Franklin would probably > enjoy having his dalliances and social adventures discussed; while > Jefferson would be humiliated. It's just not as much fun. > -Melinda > -- > Melinda C. P. Skinner > Richmond, VA > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]> >> Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the >> scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that. >> >> Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a >> fallen "great". >> >> Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were >> said to be "grateful". >> >> Lyle Browning, RPA >> >> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote: >> >> > Lyle, >> > >> > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I have >> > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then, likely, >> > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the evidence >> > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced >> > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint >> > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend >> > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson continued to >> > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as illustrated >> > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own >> > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby. >> > >> > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation >> > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far >> > as the integrity issue is concerned. >> > >> > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and the >> > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his >> > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as >> > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been >> > made clear -at the birth of a new nation. >> > >> > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his >> > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for >> > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican form of >> > government. >> > >> > Anne >> > Anne Pemberton >> > [log in to unmask] >> > http://www.erols.com/apembert >> > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >> > <[log in to unmask] >> > > >> > To: <[log in to unmask]> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM >> > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in >> > Barger's opinion >> > >> > >> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a >> >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to >> >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have >> >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as >> >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been >> >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the >> >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist >> >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a >> >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with >> >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does >> >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person did >> >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans >> >> were Nazis. >> >> >> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument. >> >> >> >> Lyle Browning, RPA >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote: >> >> >> >>> Lyle, >> >>> >> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them. >> >>> >> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly >> >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's >> >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories. >> >>> >> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the >> >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the >> >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published: >> >>> >> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient >> >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far >> >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the >> >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered >> >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered." >> >>> >> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later: >> >>> >> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a >> >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In >> >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and >> >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its >> >>> defense." >> >>> >> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of >> >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs. >> >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried >> >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact >> >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the >> >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall, >> >>> to reclaim his honor. >> >>> >> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many >> >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish >> >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for >> >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter about why >> >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return from >> >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable >> >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as executor of >> >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her under >> >>> in the event the he met an early demise. >> >>> >> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the >> >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write >> >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency. >> >>> >> >>> What goes around comes around. >> >>> >> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this >> >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find >> >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will >> >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in >> >>> recent days, to the lie. >> >>> >> >>> Anne >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Anne Pemberton >> >>> [log in to unmask] >> >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert >> >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >> >>> <[log in to unmask] >> >>> > >> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page >> >>> in Barger's opinion >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture. >> >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting >> >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically. >> >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that >> >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11 >> >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the >> >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now. >> >>>> >> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA >> >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop- >> >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one >> >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas, >> >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who >> >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up >> >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may. >> >>>> >> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man >> >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point >> >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes >> >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose >> >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and >> >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science >> >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by >> >>>> posturing in one direction or another. >> >>>> >> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH, >> >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to >> >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic. >> >>>> May you live by those words as well. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ______________________________________ >> >>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> >>>> instructions at >> >>>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> >>> >> >>> ______________________________________ >> >>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> >>> instructions at >> >>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> >> >> >> ______________________________________ >> >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> >> instructions at >> >> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> > >> > ______________________________________ >> > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> > instructions at >> > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> >> ______________________________________ >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions >> at >> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html > > ______________________________________ > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions > at > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html