Great post Tom Ray.
I look forward to seeing you in VA in late May or June.
Anne Gwaltney
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Ray, Tom (LVA)" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: May 6, 2008 9:42 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
>
>The front page of the print version of the Richmond Times Dispatch today
>reports the death of Mildred Jeter Loving. It is sad to note that her
>passing is almost unfindable online.
>
>Mrs. Loving was an unsung American heroine who still came back to her
>native Virginia after facing harassment, bigotry and just plain
>stupidity.
>
>It is so ironic that the couple that broke miscegenation laws was named
>Loving. Ironic too that the most famous state campaign slogan in the US,
>"Virginia is for Lovers," is so far from the truth. It was not true in
>Jefferson's day, was not true in the Loving's day, and still is not
>true.
>
>If you read this far in this post I hope you will take a moment and
>reflect on Mr. and Mrs. Loving and the legacy their lives have left us.
>
>
>Tom H. Ray
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ray Bonis
>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:51 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
>
>"Be polite to all, but intimate with few." - Thomas Jefferson.
>
>How about the dozen or so who are driving this debate about Jefferson
>into the ground move the discussion OFF the Virginia History list serve
>discussion group - just send the emails to yourselves.
>
>Let's pick a NEW topic.
>
>How about Emancipation Day in Virginia - I know African Americans in
>Richmond celebrated this day on and off for a number of years after the
>Civil War -- check out this site:
>
>http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/freedom.html
>
>Does anyone have evidence that this was celebrated in other cities in
>Virginia? Why did it die out?
>
>-- Ray B.
>VCU Libraries
>
>Herbert "the badger" Barger wrote:
>> Nancy (who should let it go),
>>
>> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a
>> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to
>> some who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks. Sorry!
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>
>> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as "scum", as
>
>> I do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum, depending
>> on what view the particular person was pressing. I was only pointing
>> out [or trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to bring out in
>
>> people. And it seems to be more a reflection of the person doing the
>> observing, than what any real story is about Mr.
>> Jefferson. But no, I do not think he is "scum." I think he was
>> basically a great man with human flaws, who was fortunate to be born
>> in a time when his talents were needed. If he had been born in, say,
>> 1932 he might have been a brilliant local eccentric, self-publishing
>> little tracts with his intellectual musings and buying 100 acres in
>> Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker around the homestead. And
>> that, barring concrete evidence, we should stop projecting our own
>> issues onto him.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -------
>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>
>> --Daniel Boone
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Nancy,
>>>
>>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The
>>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie
>>> that was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom
>Woodson.
>>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston
>>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that
>>> their ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson
>>> WHEN they could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we
>>> have. They even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for degrading
>
>>> and painting their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar
>>> approach of TJ.
>>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the
>>> UPGRADE in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens your
>
>>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs.
>>>
>>> Herb Barger
>>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>>
>>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at
>>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple
>>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of each
>
>>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William
>>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful
>>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be
>>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of
>>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each
>>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some sort
>
>>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the result of
>
>>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent
>>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it
>>> was.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future
>>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain
>>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr.
>>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used here
>
>>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since there
>
>>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is easy
>
>>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that
>>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A"
>>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we
>>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering
>>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned
>>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them.
>>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in
>>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders,
>>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are passing
>
>>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing
>>> in the way of proof.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents.
>>>
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> -------
>>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>>
>>> --Daniel Boone
>>>
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>>
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>
>
>--
>Ray Bonis
>Special Collections and Archives
>VCU Libraries
>804-828-1108
>
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