Great post Tom Ray. I look forward to seeing you in VA in late May or June. Anne Gwaltney -----Original Message----- >From: "Ray, Tom (LVA)" <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: May 6, 2008 9:42 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate? > >The front page of the print version of the Richmond Times Dispatch today >reports the death of Mildred Jeter Loving. It is sad to note that her >passing is almost unfindable online. > >Mrs. Loving was an unsung American heroine who still came back to her >native Virginia after facing harassment, bigotry and just plain >stupidity. > >It is so ironic that the couple that broke miscegenation laws was named >Loving. Ironic too that the most famous state campaign slogan in the US, >"Virginia is for Lovers," is so far from the truth. It was not true in >Jefferson's day, was not true in the Loving's day, and still is not >true. > >If you read this far in this post I hope you will take a moment and >reflect on Mr. and Mrs. Loving and the legacy their lives have left us. > > >Tom H. Ray > >-----Original Message----- >From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ray Bonis >Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:51 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate? > >"Be polite to all, but intimate with few." - Thomas Jefferson. > >How about the dozen or so who are driving this debate about Jefferson >into the ground move the discussion OFF the Virginia History list serve >discussion group - just send the emails to yourselves. > >Let's pick a NEW topic. > >How about Emancipation Day in Virginia - I know African Americans in >Richmond celebrated this day on and off for a number of years after the >Civil War -- check out this site: > >http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/freedom.html > >Does anyone have evidence that this was celebrated in other cities in >Virginia? Why did it die out? > >-- Ray B. >VCU Libraries > >Herbert "the badger" Barger wrote: >> Nancy (who should let it go), >> >> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a >> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to >> some who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks. Sorry! >> >> Herb >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49 >> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer >> >> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as "scum", as > >> I do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum, depending >> on what view the particular person was pressing. I was only pointing >> out [or trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to bring out in > >> people. And it seems to be more a reflection of the person doing the >> observing, than what any real story is about Mr. >> Jefferson. But no, I do not think he is "scum." I think he was >> basically a great man with human flaws, who was fortunate to be born >> in a time when his talents were needed. If he had been born in, say, >> 1932 he might have been a brilliant local eccentric, self-publishing >> little tracts with his intellectual musings and buying 100 acres in >> Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker around the homestead. And >> that, barring concrete evidence, we should stop projecting our own >> issues onto him. >> >> Nancy >> >> ------- >> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days. >> >> --Daniel Boone >> >> >> >> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote: >> >> >>> Nancy, >>> >>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The >>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie >>> that was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom >Woodson. >>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston >>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that >>> their ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson >>> WHEN they could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we >>> have. They even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for degrading > >>> and painting their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar >>> approach of TJ. >>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the >>> UPGRADE in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion. >>> >>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens your > >>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs. >>> >>> Herb Barger >>> Jefferson Family Historian >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49 >>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer >>> >>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at >>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple >>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of each > >>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William >>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful >>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be >>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of >>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each >>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some sort > >>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the result of > >>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent >>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it >>> was. >>> >>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future >>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain >>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr. >>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used here > >>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since there > >>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is easy > >>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that >>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A" >>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we >>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering >>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned >>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them. >>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in >>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders, >>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are passing > >>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing >>> in the way of proof. >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> >>> Nancy >>> >>> ------- >>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days. >>> >>> --Daniel Boone >>> >>> ______________________________________ >>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >>> instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >>> >>> ______________________________________ >>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >>> instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >>> >> >> ______________________________________ >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> >> ______________________________________ >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> > > >-- >Ray Bonis >Special Collections and Archives >VCU Libraries >804-828-1108 > >______________________________________ >To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions >at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html > >______________________________________ >To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at >http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html