Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the
scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that.
Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a
fallen "great".
Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were
said to be "grateful".
Lyle Browning, RPA
On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
> Lyle,
>
> If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I have
> always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then, likely,
> as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the evidence
> presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced
> that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint
> him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend
> after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson continued to
> try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as illustrated
> in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own
> private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby.
>
> The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation
> with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far
> as the integrity issue is concerned.
>
> What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and the
> strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his
> disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as
> well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been
> made clear -at the birth of a new nation.
>
> It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his
> comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for
> ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican form of
> government.
>
> Anne
> Anne Pemberton
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM
> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
> Barger's opinion
>
>
>> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a
>> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to
>> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have
>> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as
>> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been
>> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the
>> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist
>> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a
>> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with
>> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does
>> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person did
>> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans
>> were Nazis.
>>
>> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
>>
>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>
>>
>> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>> Lyle,
>>>
>>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them.
>>>
>>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly
>>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's
>>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories.
>>>
>>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the
>>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the
>>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
>>>
>>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
>>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
>>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the
>>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered
>>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
>>>
>>> and the same author, said, a few years later:
>>>
>>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a
>>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In
>>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and
>>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its
>>> defense."
>>>
>>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
>>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs.
>>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried
>>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact
>>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the
>>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall,
>>> to reclaim his honor.
>>>
>>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many
>>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish
>>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for
>>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter about why
>>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return from
>>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable
>>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as executor of
>>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her under
>>> in the event the he met an early demise.
>>>
>>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
>>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
>>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
>>>
>>> What goes around comes around.
>>>
>>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this
>>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find
>>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will
>>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in
>>> recent days, to the lie.
>>>
>>> Anne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anne Pemberton
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
>>> >
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
>>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page
>>> in Barger's opinion
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
>>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting
>>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically.
>>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that
>>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11
>>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the
>>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now.
>>>>
>>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA
>>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
>>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one
>>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas,
>>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who
>>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up
>>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may.
>>>>
>>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man
>>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point
>>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes
>>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose
>>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and
>>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science
>>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by
>>>> posturing in one direction or another.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH,
>>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to
>>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic.
>>>> May you live by those words as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>>
>>>>
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