Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that. Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a fallen "great". Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were said to be "grateful". Lyle Browning, RPA On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote: > Lyle, > > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I have > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then, likely, > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the evidence > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson continued to > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as illustrated > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby. > > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far > as the integrity issue is concerned. > > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and the > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been > made clear -at the birth of a new nation. > > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican form of > government. > > Anne > Anne Pemberton > [log in to unmask] > http://www.erols.com/apembert > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask] > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in > Barger's opinion > > >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person did >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans >> were Nazis. >> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument. >> >> Lyle Browning, RPA >> >> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote: >> >>> Lyle, >>> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them. >>> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories. >>> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published: >>> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered." >>> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later: >>> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its >>> defense." >>> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs. >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall, >>> to reclaim his honor. >>> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter about why >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return from >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as executor of >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her under >>> in the event the he met an early demise. >>> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency. >>> >>> What goes around comes around. >>> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in >>> recent days, to the lie. >>> >>> Anne >>> >>> >>> >>> Anne Pemberton >>> [log in to unmask] >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask] >>> > >>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page >>> in Barger's opinion >>> >>> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture. >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically. >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11 >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now. >>>> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop- >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas, >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may. >>>> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by >>>> posturing in one direction or another. >>>> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH, >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic. >>>> May you live by those words as well. >>>> >>>> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________________ >>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >>>> instructions at >>>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >>> >>> ______________________________________ >>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >>> instructions at >>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html >> >> ______________________________________ >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the >> instructions at >> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html > > ______________________________________ > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the > instructions at > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html