Ms. Mills and Mr. Drake and others, Let me thank you both for the mountains of work, the dedication, the effort, and the time spent furthering our genealogical knowledge. I respect you both tremendously and, in conversations, have used your words and examples many times. Sadly, I'm afraid I have lost my way in the current conversation. What you have said is wonderful, thought-provoking and lofty goals to attain, but is it "real world" applicable? Headstones -- a headstone "...is PURE hearsay in its most apparent form." Hearsay! Yuk! Yet many of us spend days, weeks, months wandering through old cemeteries looking for that elusive headstone. Entire books have been written describing what headstones are in a given cemetery. And, in some cases, a headstone might be the only piece of information we know about an individual. It is hearsay, PURE hearsay! Do we discard the information? Do we not use it at all? Should we set aside the books that many of us have that describe these wonderful headstones? I won't. Do I want to backup the headstone information with some other form of record? Sure I do, but in lieu of another record, the headstone is the best information I have. I will use it and hold it near, appreciating the mere fact that I have something. Certified, Notarized, Etc. -- what do we really gain? Here is what I have found to be the case the majority of the time in the "real world." I go to a courthouse. I copy a certificate (birth, death, marriage, other) on the ever present copier. I carry the copy to the counter. A clerk gets a rubberstamp and stamps the copy (certified or notary). A clerk then scribbles something in the blocks made by the rubber stamp. I pay my fee. I leave. Ah-ha! Houston, we have a problem. The clerk has no idea at all as to what they just certified or notarized! The clerk did no more than certify or notarize that it was a piece of paper. It could have been something I took out of my bag, a piece of trash, perhaps my grandsons drawing. It didn't matter because the clerk didn't bother to look. The clerk didn't actually see me copy the certificate. The clerk has no idea whether I modified the copy before presenting it for certification or notarization. The clerk will not know and no one else will bother to find out if I modify the copy at home. But the clerk collected the fee and that makes it alright. Yet genealogical societies will accept this piece of paper simply because it is certified or notarized. I believe that standard is ludicrous. Give me my copies, uncertified and unnotarized, and to heck with the genealogical societies. Many courthouses charge 600 to more than 1000% markup just to have a rubber stamp and some scribbles applied to a copy. This is akin to highway robbery, yet we tolerate it just to have a meaningless stamp and scribbles. On the other hand, some courthouses charge the same exorbitant fee regardless of certification or notarization. These are "real world" facts. I'm sure that I'm not the only one with evidence to support what I've said. Is there really much of anything that can truly be considered as "primary?" Do the "words or actions described or written by a person who was present at the utterance or event - first-hand - or who by reason of some unique place and time had the opportunity to accurately know of those events and words" make it fact anymore than a worthless stamp on a piece of paper or the lonely headstone in a cemetery? Did that person who was present at the utterance or event hear the words correctly and record them correctly? We only assume. Did the person present at some unique place and time describe the events with an eye towards facts and without embellishment? We can only hope. Yet we wave the flag and shout "Eureka!" when we find such things. For me, I hold my certified and uncertified, notarized and unnotarized copies in equal esteem. The weeks and months I have walked among my ancestors in lonely, sometimes forgotten, cemeteries gathering information makes their worth invaluable to me. I would love to attain the lofty goals we talk and write about, but right now the "real world" is at my feet and I cannot turn it away. Confusion reigns supreme. Tom Royalty to Rogues http://www.l-dunaway.net/ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html