To David Kiracofe: You may believe in bridges to no where one way or another; but historical evidence should not be ignored. If you have not already read this: Martha Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson's wife and mother of his children, died in 1782. Sally Hemings had her first child Harriet in 1795. The following evidence is persuasive, convincing and leads to the opinion that Thomas Jefferson was NOT the father of any of Sally Heming's children. I got my information from the books THE JEFFERSON-HEMINGS MYTH, AN AMERICAN TRAVESTY, published 2001 by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society; and the book JEFFERSON VINDICATED by Cynthia H. Burton, copyright and publication 2005, Library of Congress control #2005902894. I recommend reading these books. They present chronology charts; DNA test results; observations of witnesses, families, and contemporaries at Monticello. 1) Sally lived at Monticello from childhood through many child bearing years, and didn't become pregnant until Sally was 22 years old, 13 years after Martha died. 2) Only Sally's last child's, Eston's, lineage has been tested in 1998 for DNA and shows he descended from Sally and A male Jefferson, not necessarily Thomas. Eston Heming's DNA was tested from John Weeks Jefferson, whose family had always claimed lineage from "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph. Because Thomas Jefferson had no sons they must use the male Y chromosome from the DNA of his brother, nephews, male cousins, or another male carrying the Jefferson Y chromosome. They can't trace this DNA lineage through generations of females. 3) Sally's son Madison's descendants, who were located after much effort, have refused to be DNA tested. We don't know that a Jefferson fathered any other of Sally's children. 4) The rumor that Sally was Thomas Jefferson's wife Martha's half sister is just that, a rumor. Sally is said to have been a light mulatto and pretty. The various myths disagree with Martha Jefferson's father's business dealings, ports, etc., and there is no DNA evidence that she is a blood relative to Martha. 5) Even if we want to make the BIASED ASSUMPTION that more than Eston of Sally's children was fathered by a Jefferson, it is again MOST UNLIKELY that Thomas was the Jefferson that fathered them. 6) Thomas Jefferson arrived in Paris 1784, as the U.S. Ambassador to France, and was accompanied by his oldest daughter Martha who was 12 years old, and James Hemings. 1787, three years later, Jefferson's other daughter Mary accompanied by Sally Hemings arrived in Paris. Thomas Jefferson and his family returned from Paris December 1789. Sally's first child Harriet was born on October 5, 1795 when Thomas Jefferson was 52 years old; he was 65 years old when Eston, Sally's last child, was born. In those days life expectancy was much shorter and people aged earlier, and had the ailments that may arrive with age. Thomas Jefferson had severe arthritis for many long years, and other ailments that appear with aging. 7) Thomas Jefferson's younger brother Randolph Jefferson had become widowed between the years of 1796 and 1807. Randolph was born on October 1, 1755. He would have been between 41 and 52 years of age when his first wife died. Thomas Jefferson was born April 13, 1743 and was 12 ½ years older than Randolph. Eston, Sally's last child, was born on May 21, 1808, when Randolph was about 52 ½ years old and Thomas was 65. When Jefferson retired to Monticello in 1809 after completing his second term as President, Sally quit having children. Randolph was remarried 1808 or early 1809, and after this Sally had no more children. Randolph's oldest son, Thomas, married on October 3, 1808 and after this Sally had no more children. President Jefferson died July 4, 1826, when he was 83 years old. 8) Randolph's residence and farm was 20 miles away from Monticello. Randolph had 5 sons, 4 of child bearing age in their early 20's when Eston, Sally's last child, was conceived. Randolph and his sons visited Monticello, and one or more of his sons periodically lived at Monticello. In the book JEFFERSON AT MONTICELLO by J. A. Bear, Jr., he reports that the slave Isaac reported that Randall was a simple man that used to come out among black people and play the fiddle and dance half the night. There are written historical statements from interviews with Thomas Jefferson and others expressing Randolph's sometime lack of intelligence, character and personal discipline. 9) There were other male Jefferson relatives that visited Monticello. From a map it appears the Carrs lived less than 5 miles from Monticello. President Jefferson's sister Lucy Jefferson Lewis and her family, and Martha Jefferson Randolph and her family lived almost adjacent to Monticello. 10) In archives is a letter dated August 12, 1807 where Thomas Jefferson writes to his brother Randolph that Randolph's twin sister was then visiting Monticello and that he and his family were invited to visit, and also that Randolph was expected to deliver grass seed to Monticello. This was slightly more than 9 months before Eston's birth. Randolph and his family likely visited at that time. 11) There is a journal of Thomas Jefferson's letters; and when Jefferson was at home, at his insistence his daughter Martha J. Randolph, her husband and their children (they had 12 children, one 13-14 years old around the time Sally became pregnant with Eston) lived at Monticello for the duration of his visit. Sometimes they arrived before he did. Also while Thomas was at Monticello, at times his sister and cousins visited. 12) Family letters express the great affection and respect the Jefferson family had for each other; and of Thomas Jefferson's impeccable behavior regarding visibility of his living quarters and policies that servants were to be in his quarters only in his absence. 13) The whereabouts of the slaves was not at all times known. There were times when Sally helped out at estates neighboring Monticello. 14) Thomas Jefferson married Martha Wayles Skelton in 1772. She was a widower. They had 6 children. Only 3 lived beyond infancy, 2 beyond childhood. Martha Wayles Jefferson died in 1782. Their daughter Martha (Patsy) married Thomas Mann Randolph, Jr. in 1790 and they had 12 children, and all survived childhood except 2 that died in infancy. They lived almost adjacent to Monticello. Martha Randolph lived until she was 64 years old. Their second surviving child, Mary (Maria, Polley), married John Wayles Eppes. They had 3 children and only one survived beyond age 3. Mary died giving birth when she was 26 years old. They lived about 60 miles from Monticello. President Jefferson's sister Lucy Jefferson Lewis and her husband and children lived near Monticello. 15) When Martha Wayles Jefferson's father died, they inherited his estate and slaves, and debts of what would now be over a million dollars that was paid for the slaves and secured by the slaves. President Jefferson died leaving considerable financial debts. Attorney Richard E. Dixon, author, page 160 "The Case Against Thomas Jefferson: A Trial Analysis of the Evidence on Paternity" THE JEFFERSON-HEMINGS MYTH "Jefferson's financial situation would have prevented his freeing his slaves under Virginia law. It may also be that he would have let more or all go but for the legal claim of his creditors." And laws made it difficult for ex-slaves to survive. After being freed Sally's brother James became an alcoholic and committed suicide. Page 185 In a published article Madison, one of Sally's brothers, speaks of Jefferson "He was hardly ever known to get angry. He was uniformly kind to all about him being kind to all at all times." Jefferson's writings about human rights transcend his own circumstances and time. I emphatically question the motives of people who have an agenda to publish BIASED AND MISINFORMING opinions and conclusions [and to the extent that they ignore most pertinent scientific evidence and historic evidence, LIES] about the very person who probably did the most, in his day, to end slavery. And he was the most instrumental in establishing democracy in the United States. Thomas Jefferson wrote numerous articles, including his first draft of the Declaration of Independence (exhibits are available), where he states that slavery is "a cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty" and that slavery is "an assemblage of horrors". They made him delete his opinions about slavery from his draft of the Declaration of Independence. He wrote in several articles that he thought miscegenation, bearing multi racial children, was degrading to all races involved. This was written at a time when slavery was legal and he held senior government offices. Within Monticello the slaves probably led a comfortable life; but when he died he was badly in debt. He freed Sally and some other of the more senior slaves. The remaining slaves were considered part of the assets used as collateral for his inherited debts. And when slaves were freed there was an abundance of laws to prevent their gainful employment, and they had to leave Virginia. If he were having an affair with Sally why didn't she become pregnant before she was 22 years old, or during the 13 years after Thomas's wife died? That President Jefferson was the father of even one of her children is possible, but I think extremely unlikely. Some might be of the opinion that the difference is only academic; that what big difference would there be if Thomas and Sally, two consenting adults, had a sexual relationship? I think it would have been much out of character for the brilliant, most principled, most important and dashing man, who was close with his and Martha's children, to have a sexual relationship with a family slave Sally; for whom he held enough personal regard to have her help raise his children. I think there would be many accomplished, Caucasian, not slave women, who would be desirous of Thomas Jefferson's attentions. From Sally's point of view I think the statements from scholarly spin masters who (twist, manipulate, and ignore an overabundance of evidence to the contrary) conclude that Thomas Jefferson was or was most likely the father of Eston and or Sally's other children is degrading to Sally, as well as to President Jefferson, as well as to United States history. And some of the "scholars" that conclude in writing and lectures that he was the father of Eston and or more of her children are those that own and work for Monticello and are professors at the University of Virginia, both institutions that were founded by Thomas Jefferson. They have a fundamental responsibility not to lie and deface their founder Thomas Jefferson. They have changed the name from The Monticello Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation to The Monticello Thomas Jefferson Foundation. With its present administration, I think the Monticello Corporation has no reason to continue as a public facility representing Thomas Jefferson, its founder, or United States history. Academia would be better off without those that misstate, deceive, lie, and prosecute their institutions' founder, instead of presenting the available information and wherever it may lead. They should be removed from their positions of responsibility. I conclude that because Thomas Jefferson was an extraordinarily brilliant, principled, judicious and discerning person, and because of much additional evidence which supports my conclusion, it is extremely unlikely that President Jefferson would have had a sexual relationship with, and or impregnated Sally Hemings. As multiple public records show, and as these scholars would have known, there were many other male Jeffersons, some adolescent or in their early 20's, frequently at Monticello when Thomas Jefferson was there, and particularly during the time when Sally became pregnant with Eston, who could have been the father of Eston. And as to the rest of her children, there may have been several different fathers, as reported was so with Sally's mother. (Ms.)Adrian Zolkover ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kiracofe" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:23 AM Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Annette Gordon-Reed praised by Edmund Morgan Kevin Hardwick wrote (in response to remarks by Herb Barger): >"What Kukla says, in essence, is that in his view, the evidence suggests >(but does not prove) that Jefferson had a sexual relationship with Hemings. >Kukla's view is more or less the same as mine, and I would submit that of >most reasonable people who have examined the evidence. I doubt we will ever know for certain whether Jefferson and Hemings had a sexual relationship. But the circumstantial evidence suggests that there was one. It is just circumstantial evidence--it is suggestive, but not definitive. But then, that is what I take Kukla to be saying when he writes "the available evidence now suggests." We don't know for sure, but the extant evidence in favor of Jefferson's paternity of (some of) Heming's children is sufficiently persuasive to allow a reasonable, if tentative conclusion that Jefferson did in fact have sex with Hemings." What Kevin is pointing out is exactly what academic historians are trained to do: to take evidence, analyze it -- ask reasonable questions of it -- and then build an interpretation based on that analysis. This is intended to move us in the direction of a better understanding of the past. But Mr. Barger rejects the reasonableness of the question that Jon Kukla (and others -- including myself in that number) has asked. Indeed, Mr. Barger's depiction of the issue of a possible Jefferson paternity as somehow libelous or part of a conspiracy to destroy Jefferson makes is difficult to make reasonable inquiries Mr. Barger's questions however set the bar too high -- in the direction of ascertaining Truth. But the evidence is so murky -- so many contradictory accounts, so many axes ground from callender onward, so many layers of familial protections, such uncertain science now -- as to preclude ever actually finding that Truth. No doubt this is the most vexing problem for the self-appointed protectors of Jefferson's reputation: it cannot be proved conclusively either way -- as much as Mr. Barger and others have whittled away at the evidence in favor of paternity, I still have seen no compelling evidence that demonstrates _conclusively_ that Jefferson did not father children by Sally Hemings. Which gets us to stalemate here: academic historians accept that there are some questions the answers to which are at best just "suggested" by the available evidence, and other historians looking at the same evidence might come up with reasonable intepretations of their own. This is our professional obligation. David Kiracofe David Kiracofe History Tidewater Community College Chesapeake Campus 1428 Cedar Road Chesapeake, Virginia 23322 757-822-5136 ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html