Kevin: Are you claiming that people like John Marshall and James Madison and George Washington believed that VA. could pull out of the US govt. whenever 50.1% of the legislature called for a convention and 50.1% of the delegates of that convention said, "let's break our contract with the rest of the US and leave"? Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law and Public Policy Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208-3494 518-445-3386 [log in to unmask] >>> Kevin Gutzman <[log in to unmask]> 06/30/08 10:14 AM >>> One little quibble with Brent Tarter: it isn't rebellion or treason to act pursuant to the established constitution. Thus, if what Virginia did in 1861 was consistent with its obligations under the Constitution, it wasn't rebellion, any more than for the USA to withdraw from the UN or the NATO would be treason or rebellion. The leading Virginia Federalists of 1788 repeatedly told their compatriots in the ratification convention that they could secede from the Union. See chapter three of my _Virginia's American Revolution: From Dominion to Republic, 1776-1840_ (Lanham, Maryland: Lexington Books, 2007) on this topic. Kevin Gutzman Kevin R. C. Gutzman, J.D., Ph.D. Associate Professor of History Western Connecticut State University See _Who Killed the Constitution? The Fate of American Liberty from World War I to George W. Bush_ on Amazon.com! "Tarter, Brent (LVA)" <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history <[log in to unmask]> 06/30/2008 09:55 AM Please respond to Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history <[log in to unmask]> To [log in to unmask] cc Subject [VA-HIST] Ratification of the Constitution I believe that Kevin Hardwick has overlooked an interesting and pertinent fact about ratification of the Constitution. When the Virginia Convention voted to ratify the Constitution in June 1788, the instrument of ratification began with this language: "WE the Delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly, and now met in Convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us, to decide thereon, DO, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under hte Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will. . . ." The Ordinance of Secession that the Virginia Convention of 1861 proposed in April 1861 and that a majority of the people who voted in the referendum ratified in May specifically cited that clause in the Virginia instrument of ratification. There is a clause in the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776 that since 1830 has been part of the Virginia Constitution that reserves to the people the right of revolution. Does or did that make secession legal? It certainly did in the eyes of the people who approved of it in 1861. Did the outcome of the war in 1865 effectively render secession impossible, illegal, or unconstitutional? If you revolt and win, it's revolution; if you revolt and lose, it's treason because the winners get to set the terms. Brent Tarter The Library of Virginia [log in to unmask] Please visit the Library of Virginia's Web site at http://www.lva.virginia.gov ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html