Nancy, Thank you for this thoughtful piece. It certainly sheds a different light on Jefferson. I am going to look for that book in my library. Very interesting. Anita > Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:09:50 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Jefferson's Overseer > To: [log in to unmask] > > I suspect plenty of widowers do it, even today [live celibate lives]. > People can and do "turn it off" when times require. But in TJs case, > we'll never know. I do want to throw another log on the fire here and > ask what any of you think about his depiction in "Dominion of > Memories", by Susan Dunn. It's an interesting book, on some levels I > find it annoyingly on the mark, many of the attitudes she describes > still exist here in Va, and can make you want to tear your hair out > in frustration. But it also seems she takes an excessively negative > view, or paints with too broad a brush. Perhaps the fact that Va [and > the Carolinas] endured 3 wars in 90 years also had something to do > with their "backwardness." > > But I find her depiction of TJ surprising, having grown up with him > shown on a pedestal all my life. He seems to have had his "moments in > the sun" where he did great things, mainly in areas where his > intellect could shine. Those thought processes seemed to have been > very idealistic, which was what we needed during the Revolutionary > period. But then he retired to Monticello and lived in splendid > isolation, handing down his idealism in the form of stultifying > edicts about the good old days and staying true to one's agrarian > roots. If true, he did his state a great disservice and was really in > no position to be directing the course Virginia was taking, with all > his theories that were growth- damaging, not growth-enhancing. If he > truly did see himself as the Sage of Monticello, trying to direct the > course of his state as he once directed the course of the new nation, > let's face it, he might have seen himself on a different plane than > as a sexually frustrated plantation owner sleeping with a slave > woman. It seems to me his ideals and thoughts in his retirement > became, as so often happens with the older folks, more and more > inward looking and conservative. A weed to entangle the only > political dominion he had left, Virginia, and not the flowering of > liberty it once was. From Ms. Dunn's depiction it makes me wonder if > his conservative elder self had been plopped down in 1770s > Philadelphia, what position he would have taken-- Patriot or Tory? > But it seems to me his character was one rooted in idealism and the > intellect; all his tinkering and planting at Monticello was because > his inquiring intellect wanted to Know Things. Satisfying that > intellectual craving seemed to be a big motivator in his life [which > brings up the side question of how big a motivator physical needs > were in the man-- sex, fine foods, excellent wines]. But as he was > more isolated from the busy-ness of the world, his ideals took on an > increasingly impractical tone. One must also then ask, as a legend in > his own mind, if he would have slept with a "mere slave", and if his > passion for Mrs. Cosway was in large part an idealism, the "perfect > love", etc. > > Jes' askin' > > Nancy > > ------- > I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days. > > --Daniel Boone > > > > On May 5, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Stephan A. Schwartz wrote: > > > I think Nancy is correct. There is not a scintilla of evidence > > that Jefferson was asexual. It is undeniable that Martha and > > Thomas Jefferson had an active and apparently satisfying sex life, > > and his attraction to Maria Cosway tells us he was not of a > > celibate inclination. Are we to assume then that for the > > remaining two-thirds of his life he was a chronic masturbator? Ask > > yourself, are you prepared to live for half a century without a > > sexual relationship, or without lying in bed cuddling the man or > > woman you are sleeping with? If the answer is yes, you should > > consider life in the Roman clergy. It's better than tenure. > > > > -- Stephan > > > > > > On 4 May 2008, at 22:17, Anne Pemberton wrote: > > > >> Nancy, > >> > >> I fail to see how noting that he was a sexual person is "trashing > >> him". > >> > >> As a widower, we would expect a healthy male to make some > >> provisions for sexual outlets. There were all sorts of taboos back > >> then for "taking matters in hand". NOT providing such an outlet > >> could have made TJ a rather dour man who was not capable of the > >> leadership that he exhibited. > >> > >> > > > > ______________________________________ > > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the > > instructions at > > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html > > ______________________________________ > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html