Herb, I've seen your angelfire site before. I've finished reading Jefferson's Children, and apologize for mischaracterizing "your elders" as those described in the book about the unmannerly folks who claim to be descendents of TJ. I will start on Jon Kukla's book this evening and have more to say on the issue as I go through it. As I've mentioned before, one of my nephews is a descendent of Madison Hemings, and he is definitely white as are his father and grandparents. So, characterizing the descendents of Eston Hemings as white and Madison Hemings as black is not up to your standards of accuracy;. And, as a reminder, again on your standards of accuracy, your statement that there is NOTHING to prove that TJ fathered children by Sally Hemings, is not a true statement. Oral history stands as proof in the absence of conflicting data. Oral history must be preserved - otherwise history falls to the wayside as the province of the privileged - ignoring the history and stories of those who were not gifted with the opportunity to read and write. BTW you still have not explained away the census document! Remenber in your response that Madison was known for his honesty and integrity - perhaps because of his paternity (real or believed), so the probability of a lie would besmirch the integrity of TJ as much as Madison's. Anne Anne Pemberton [log in to unmask] http://www.erols.com/apembert http://www.educationalsynthesis.org ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html