I suspect plenty of widowers do it, even today [live celibate lives]. People can and do "turn it off" when times require. But in TJs case, we'll never know. I do want to throw another log on the fire here and ask what any of you think about his depiction in "Dominion of Memories", by Susan Dunn. It's an interesting book, on some levels I find it annoyingly on the mark, many of the attitudes she describes still exist here in Va, and can make you want to tear your hair out in frustration. But it also seems she takes an excessively negative view, or paints with too broad a brush. Perhaps the fact that Va [and the Carolinas] endured 3 wars in 90 years also had something to do with their "backwardness." But I find her depiction of TJ surprising, having grown up with him shown on a pedestal all my life. He seems to have had his "moments in the sun" where he did great things, mainly in areas where his intellect could shine. Those thought processes seemed to have been very idealistic, which was what we needed during the Revolutionary period. But then he retired to Monticello and lived in splendid isolation, handing down his idealism in the form of stultifying edicts about the good old days and staying true to one's agrarian roots. If true, he did his state a great disservice and was really in no position to be directing the course Virginia was taking, with all his theories that were growth- damaging, not growth-enhancing. If he truly did see himself as the Sage of Monticello, trying to direct the course of his state as he once directed the course of the new nation, let's face it, he might have seen himself on a different plane than as a sexually frustrated plantation owner sleeping with a slave woman. It seems to me his ideals and thoughts in his retirement became, as so often happens with the older folks, more and more inward looking and conservative. A weed to entangle the only political dominion he had left, Virginia, and not the flowering of liberty it once was. From Ms. Dunn's depiction it makes me wonder if his conservative elder self had been plopped down in 1770s Philadelphia, what position he would have taken-- Patriot or Tory? But it seems to me his character was one rooted in idealism and the intellect; all his tinkering and planting at Monticello was because his inquiring intellect wanted to Know Things. Satisfying that intellectual craving seemed to be a big motivator in his life [which brings up the side question of how big a motivator physical needs were in the man-- sex, fine foods, excellent wines]. But as he was more isolated from the busy-ness of the world, his ideals took on an increasingly impractical tone. One must also then ask, as a legend in his own mind, if he would have slept with a "mere slave", and if his passion for Mrs. Cosway was in large part an idealism, the "perfect love", etc. Jes' askin' Nancy ------- I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days. --Daniel Boone On May 5, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Stephan A. Schwartz wrote: > I think Nancy is correct. There is not a scintilla of evidence > that Jefferson was asexual. It is undeniable that Martha and > Thomas Jefferson had an active and apparently satisfying sex life, > and his attraction to Maria Cosway tells us he was not of a > celibate inclination. Are we to assume then that for the > remaining two-thirds of his life he was a chronic masturbator? Ask > yourself, are you prepared to live for half a century without a > sexual relationship, or without lying in bed cuddling the man or > woman you are sleeping with? If the answer is yes, you should > consider life in the Roman clergy. It's better than tenure. > > -- Stephan > > > On 4 May 2008, at 22:17, Anne Pemberton wrote: > >> Nancy, >> >> I fail to see how noting that he was a sexual person is "trashing >> him". >> >> As a widower, we would expect a healthy male to make some >> provisions for sexual outlets. There were all sorts of taboos back >> then for "taking matters in hand". NOT providing such an outlet >> could have made TJ a rather dour man who was not capable of the >> leadership that he exhibited. >> >> > > ______________________________________ > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the > instructions at > http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html ______________________________________ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html