Herb: Did he admit the story with Mrs. Walker or deny it and then admit it after Callender produced the evidence? Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law and Public Policy Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208-3494 518-445-3386 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 05/03/08 6:49 PM >>> I stick by my article that TJ admitted to one charge, that of Mrs. Walker and denies all the other rumors. DNA disproved the Callender statement that Tom Woodson was a son of TJ. He did not admit they were ALL true....just the Walker case. Herb the notion of Callender being a liar is pretty amusing; he accused Jefferson of a number of things -- including propositioning his neighbor's wife. Jefferson denied them all, and then had to admit to all but one as Callender came up with a paper trial to prove them -- including Jefferson's improper advanced on his neighbor's wife. So, who was the "liar" here -- the investigative reporter (that is really what Callender was) who revealed a number of Jefferson's acts that Jefferson denied; or Jefferson who denied them and then was forced to admit they were true! The only one Callender could not "prove" was the relationship with Sally. But, even if he was wrong about that; it would not make him a "liar" but only prove he was mistaken. I am sure that even Mr. Barger does not believe that every mistaken assertion of fact makes someone a "liar." The interesting thing about Jefferson and Callender is that Jefferson flat out lied when he denied most of Callender's accusations, when Jefferson knew they were true. So, Herb, do you really want to do down the road of calling Callender a liar, unless you prepared to lay the same accusation on Jefferson 4 or 5 more times than Callender? Paul Finkelman Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law and Public Policy Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208-3494 518-445-3386 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 05/03/08 5:31 PM >>> Stephan, Yes, the controversy has been with us since 1802 when Callender, "bad mouthed" TJ.....he personally had, to him, a good reason....TJ had denied him the Richmond Postmaster position. The DNA proved Callender to be a LIAR.....there was NO Jefferson/Woodson DNA match. Thus, what we have remaining is a finding of a match between "A" Jefferson DNA and Eston Hemings DNA. As I have earlier stated in earlier posts is that Dr. Foster, in my opinion, (I was assisting in identifying Jefferson subjects and history and genealogy and recommending sources for other persons of the study), tested a known male subject of Eston Hemings, Sally's son. That son, according to long held family beliefs, carried the Jefferson DNA. This family belief was that "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph, had fathered Eston. This family NEVER claimed descent from Thomas as his brother Madison had. Therefore, Dr. Foster had an assured match in hand WELL BEFORE the lab results, however he never told Nature or anyone else of this "line up." Dr. Foster and Mrs. Bennett (whose suggestion it was to have the study), had a falling out over Dr. Foster's release of the results prior to her printing of a Jefferson book she had in the works. Up to this point she had been financing the project. Up until her death a few months ago, she held great resentment and hurt for her "former" friend. In an audio taped recording she states, "Gene, what is you want, money, his reply according to our interview with her, was NO....FAME? At what cost did he get fame? He never told Nature that I had recommended a meeting of all researchers, etc. prior to release of the story results. He blames this on "lack of space in Nature and an unnecessary meeting." Nature never knew of other Jefferson suspects, otherwise there was NO way they could have truthfully had a suggested headline, "Jefferson fathers slaves last child." In the absence of this knowledge they went with what they had after the Carrs were eliminated. It just HAD to be Thomas, (Randolph and sons were not known by Nature), there was no other Jefferson in the equation. In a 45 minute phone interview with Nature, immediately after publication, they told Accuracy in Media Founder, Reed Irvine, that they knew NOTHING of other possible Jefferson DNA. Mr. Irvine also phoned Dr. Foster at this time and was not given a satisfactory reply. Back checking the many e-mails Dr. Foster and I exchanged, I found inconsistencies and outright different meanings to indicate to me that what was stated in one e-mail was not consistent with another. In other words, it seemed to me that I "may be too concerned" of certain methods, arrival of study results, release of study to Nature, why Science in the United States was not used for the study, (he says they refused because of too much advance publicity). As a source of serious research and the fame of TJ's DNA Study in question and a need to sell publications, this just does not "cook." Was there haste to get the results in time for the election at that time, to support President Clinton's pending impeachment, as suggested by Prof. Joseph Ellis and others? Prof. Ellis, in his book, Founding Brothers, (Smith has the sharpest pencil of anyone around the beltway), heaps great mention of Stephan Smith (at that time USNWR Editor), had a long multiple page article with a cover and including a story by Prof. Ellis accusing TJ. We might wonder how this issue came out before the Nature Story of Nov. 5, 1998 since they had an embargo on the story. I am not convinced that future DNA of this particular case will be improved by science because "it jumped track" not in the inability of science to properly identify the DNA BUT in my opinion, a "manipulation of events and denial of proper information." In my opinion the only thing the test proved was that the Eston Hemings family had a confirmation of their long held oral family beliefs.....they were descended from "A" Jefferson,.....Randolph, as they had ALWAYS believed. What do you mean, "what seems clear, over the years they evolved some kind of bonding and relationship?" What proven bonding and relationship? She was seldom mentioned except in slave supply lists where she received the same similar supplies as other slaves at the house. You seem to not contribute any importance to the five year absence of child bearing....why not.......from this date on through all her pregnancies Randolph was "between wives." The issue in France is very clear....Sally for 5 weeks (the necessary time to have conceived, a child if anything had proved this , and it was never proven. The main thing is that this period was when she was AWAY from TJ. Of course Madison's mention of this is one topic that is questionable in his many statements which to me are questionable. We know his naming by Dolley Madison was not correct, so what else in the article is incorrect? So what if Sally did conceive, at Monticello, and we don't know WHERE she was, everyone came when TJ arrived. Possibly his first cousin, George Jefferson, his Richmond Manager, could have arrived as did Randolph and sons, not exactly people that would be registered, but "family." His nephew, Isham Randolph Jefferson, was listed in a Kentucky History book as having been "reared" by TJ. Was he arriving when TJ did to "rear" him? No reason to come when he was NOT there, because in most instances Monticello was under construction and was closed. TJ always stopped by daughter, Martha's home, on his travels to Monticello and she accompanied him there with her children. Just because "he" was there that is no reason to ASSUME he fathered any Sally child.......preposterous. Some poster earlier asked about why no one mentioned Randolph prior to the DNA Study and Prof. Joseph Ellis asked me the same question. I told Ellis that others had and asked if he had read "Thomas Jefferson and his UNKNOWN Brother" and he replied NO. This Monticello book is very informative and this historian is ignorant of it? I was contacted by a co-author of, "Anatomy of a Scandal", Rebecca McMurry, just as soon as the story broke in the media, informing me that she and her family had lived in nearby Orange Co., Va. and had purchased some of the items auctioned at Monticello upon Mr. Jefferson's death. Since I had suggested in my media releases, the name of Randolph Jefferson as a possible father, and she had read of my research. She related to me that her family and almost all the community believed that it was Randolph who fathered Sally's children. Another person contacted me, an award winning playwright and stage play producer from the University of North Carolina, Mrs. Karyn Traut, and gave me details of a play, Saturday's Children", that she had produced in 1981 after seven years of research and that her research had led her to conclude that it was Randolph Jefferson who fathered some of Sally's children. Just because Prof. Ellis and any other unknowledgeable persons choose to say, "why wasn't Randolph mentioned before now?" doesn't mean that he was suspected in a VACUUM. Until this DNA Study came before us, there was no need to pursue and challenge every statement made by persons claiming descent from a famous president rather than his not so important brother. I am looking at an 1883 book here before me, "Life of Thomas Jefferson", by James Parton in which the following sentence appears in Chap. LIX, The Campaign Lies of 1800. Referring to a statement to two of her sons, Col. Thomas Jefferson Randolph and George Wythe Randolph, TJ's daughter, Martha, not long before her death, said, "She asked the Colonel if he remembered when Hemings (the slave who most resembled Mr. Jefferson) was born. He turned to the book containing the list of slaves, and found and found that he was born at the time supposed by Mrs. Randolph. She then directed her son's attention to the fact, that Mr. Jefferson and Sally Hemings could not have met, were far distance from each other, for fifteen months prior to the birth. She bade her sons remember this fact, and always defend the character of their grandfather." Mr. Parton, the book author, states, "It so happened, when I was examining an old account-book of Mr. Jeffersons, I came "pop" on the original entry of the slave's birth, and I was then able, from well-known circumstances, to prove the fifteen months' separation. I could give fifty more facts, if there were any need of it, to show Mr. Jefferson's innocence of this and all similar instances against propriety," Of course you may say, well who was this Hemings child referenced? My long and careful research indicates that the reference is to Beverly Hemings for various reasons. Some people claim, for obvious reasons, that TJ never clarified his statements regarding the many rumors against him...he did. In a cover letter to his Secretary of the Navy and Secretary of the Treasury he admits some earlier visiting when he was young and single to visiting a married friend while her husband was away. But he says, that is the "ONLY ONE" of the rumors against me which is correct and I admit it as improper. The other rumors at the time were the Callender Campaign Lies about a connection to Sally Hemings. He did not feel it necessary, during the busy time he was running our country to debate or dignify all that and future rumors. A famous quote to Henry Lee on May 15, 1826, just before his death on July 4th, says it all I think, "All should be laid open to you without reserve, for there is not a TRUTH existing which I fear, or would wish unknown to the whole world." Herb Barger Jefferson Historian Herb -- The facts, such as we know them are the facts. More will emerge with time. I am quite familiar with Abigail Adam's comments, the words of a punctilious mother of daughters, deeply opposed to slavery - Sally is the only known slave ever to spend the night under an Adams roof - and, I think, appalled at a Southern culture that would condone sending a nine year child around the world in the care of another child. She saw Sally as "15 or 16" (she was actually 14) and knew to a fine point how responsible 15 year old girls were. That says nothing whatever about the impact of Sally on Jefferson, matters of which she could have know way of knowing, and which would have offended her on several levels, had she done so. We will simply have to disagree about her parentage. Willard Sterne Randall offers no citation for his assertion that she was the daughter of Nelson Jones (probably Joseph Neilson). I think Annette Gordon-Reed makes a compelling case against it and, more than that, I find it improbable. Jones/Neilson was a carpenter. There are the age issues. But, mostly, I do not believe that a lower caste white would violate and impregnate a slave on the Jefferson plantation. I don't mean that such a man would cavil over moral concerns, simply that in a culture that sees some people as property, you would assume the owner would not be amused by the violation of his property. It would be a significant trespass, with children as a long range consequence. If your rice bowl depended on the owner, I just don't think you would do something like that casually. I join myself with everybody else on this list who has made the point that you have to see these people first as human beings embedded in a culture. That is not romantic. We, ourselves, are similarly embedded. Why it matters is that these men and women, so mundanely ordinary in some ways nonetheless could do what they did. Using science and documentation to recreate that reality in order to better understand it seems to me a wholly admirable task. If you ask me to speculate, based on years of reading about these men, I would say this. Jefferson felt vulnerable. He was a fastidious man, and he was strongly attracted to a married woman, Maria Cosway. For her a physical relationship was adultery. But their mental, emotional, aesthetic, and physical connections were strong. There was also his sense of loyalty to Martha, whom he adored. My wife died six years ago, and I adored her in life, and cherished her more than I can express, and my views have not changed a whit, and have little relevance to the several friendships I have formed with women since her death. I expect Jefferson felt much the same because that is the way most widowers with whom I have talked describe their life experience, and studies provide formalization for this. Also the death of wives was much higher as a percentage than it is today. As was death in general. Jefferson is unusual only in that he did not remarry. Unlike, say, Mason who, we know, deeply loved his wife. Jefferson had no real idea what to expect with Sally.Prior to seeing her, she was probably mostly a logistical detail. Her importance, her reality, in his mind, lay principally in her role as a guide and companion for nine year old Maria. And then she was there. Pretty, vivacious, possibly a genetic echo of his great love. She would know nothing of any of this, of course. It must have been very awkward for him. She was completely his, literally. She was little more than a child. And if she was Martha's half sister she was Martha returned to life, as he must first have known her. What seems clear is that over years they evolved some kind of bond and relationship. We can't know its internals; it is entirely emic. But we can know certain details as to how it played out. She went back from France with him. She was the only person who could enter his private apartment in Monticello at all times. And this is true independent of whether there were any children. He freed her children (read into that what one will). As to why it was five years before Sally conceived. I don't know the answer. I don't know that it is definitively knowable. I don't see why it matters. There is, of course, the issue of the conception in France. But, there are several possibilities. It does seem clear Jefferson was in residence within the nine months prior to her deliveries. (Brodie, 492, Miller, 170). As for paternity. I believe that advances in genetics will answer this question dispositively - and I am content to await its judgment. -- Stephan On 1 May 2008, at 21:56, Herbert Barger wrote: > Stephan, > > You should read a bit more about Abigail Adams comments on "attractive > young woman, Sally" upon her arrival. There was talk that she was so > young and inexperienced in the ways of being Jefferson's daughters > that > there was some consideration and suggestions of sending her back > home on > the same ship she arrived on. Read earlier posts about the half-sister > rumors......NO proof. This is soap opera stuff that drives believers. > > You speak of his sex drive and frequent children by Martha, then > tell me > this....WHY was it over five years before Sally had a FIRST recorded > child after return to Monticello? > > Herb Barger > > > How was it adultery? Thomas Jefferson was a widower when he and Sally > Hemings encountered one another in Paris, she an attractive young > woman virtually white in skin tone, just blossoming into beauty - > "Dashing Sally" - his wife's half-sibling and much the same in > appearance as her sister, he a man who never married again after > Martha's death. Just at the simple human level are we to believe > Jefferson lived as a celibate for two-thirds of his life (and this > puts aside his unquestioned, if ill-defined, connection with Maria > Cosway)? Jefferson was clearly strongly attracted to women, and > clearly a sexual being. Martha Wayles Skelton bore her first child > almost nine months to the day from her nuptials - by 18th century > calculation - and was pregnant with metronomic regularity every two > years until her death. > > It seems to me that the paternity issue and the sexuality issue ought > to be seen as very different considerations. The former may be > problematic to some, but the idea of Jefferson the monk seems > patently absurd. > > -- Stephan > > > On 1 May 2008, at 17:51, [log in to unmask] wrote: > >> Accusing a fine Southern gentleman, and one of the founders of our >> country, >> of adultery when he is not available to defend himself, and on >> assumptions >> rather than facts, is poor history and quite disrespectful. >> >> J South >> >> >> >> **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? 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