I think we've all been through this basic discussion before. Please take it offline and attempt to resolve your differences there. Ronald L. Whitaker Athens, OH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anita Wills" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:42 PM Subject: Re: Gov. Kaine Pardons Gabriel Prosser >I don't know where you are going with this post. I responded to a post in >which the person said, their ancestors fought in the Civil War to free, >"My" people. I stated that the poster knew I was African American, and I >did not know what his race was. Now you are sending a post saying that the >I am focusing on the color of someones skin. In the first place my >immediate family contains almost every race in this nation. My lines have >changed races several times since it's inception. I also pointed out that I >have direct ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, and >in the Civil War. This was again, in response to the posters message, which >was directed at me. > > So I am puzzled as to your attack on me (UMMM). > > Anita > > > >>From: James Brothers <[log in to unmask]> >>Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >><[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: Re: Gov. Kaine Pardons Gabriel Prosser >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:12:05 -0400 >> >>Anita >> >>Should the colour of our skin matter when we post on the list? Do I, and >>everyone else on the list, have to preface everything I write to achieve >>legitimacy in your eyes with my race and genetic makeup? You have a >>tendency to go off half cocked and accuse other list members of opinions >>and statements that the rest of us don't see. >> >>For the record, if it matters, my ancestry is (as best we can determine >>it): English, Irish, Scot, Welsh, French, Norwegian, Ottowa, and Mohawk. >>One of my direct ancestors, Benjamin Franklin Lee, died from wounds >>received while a member of the Union Army. He had two brothers, both of >>whom served as officers in the Union Army. I have had relatives in every >>war fought in what became the US, often (at least until the Civil War) on >>both sides. >> >>James Brothers, RPA >>[log in to unmask] >> >> >> >>On Sep 3, 2007, at 22:42, Anita Wills wrote: >> >>>Well, you have one over me, as you KNOW I am African American, and I >>>don't know what race you are (UMMM). By the way, my ancestors fought in >>>the Civil War, the war of 1812, and in the Revolutionary War, so that >>>your ancestors could be free. So get your facts straight before you >>>blast off. >>> >>>This forum is not about you or me, it is an open forum. I did not aim my >>>original response to you, but to the list. Sorry you took it personally. >>> >>>Anita Wills >>> >>> >>>>From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >>>><[log in to unmask]> >>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>Subject: Re: Gov. Kaine Pardons Gabriel Prosser >>>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:21:31 -0400 >>>> >>>>I would really appreciate it if before you fire off one of your heated >>>>polemics, if you would do us all a favor and get your facts right. >>>>First, check the definition of genocide. Yours as posted is just >>>>wrong. >>>> >>>>Your presumptions about who I am and what I believe are so far off the >>>>mark as to be laughable. For your information, my ancestor died in the >>>>Civil War so that your ancestors could be free. What, you ask? My >>>>great, great, great uncle Oliver Browning died at the Battle of >>>>Shiloh, having enlisted as part of the 25th Wisconsin. This 20 year >>>>old man never had the opportunity to marry, to have children or to do >>>>any of the things that people did in their lives, all because he >>>>believed in a cause greater than himself. Madame, you have absolutely >>>>no business making presumptions of any sort about me. >>>> >>>>Lyle Browning >>>> >>>> >>>>On Sep 3, 2007, at 7:59 PM, Anita Wills wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>>Under your concept there should have been no Revolutionary, nor Civil >>>>>War (where many people died). I guess you would argue that regardless >>>>>of the inhumanity put on these people, they are always supposed to be >>>>>laughing happy slaves. By the way, the people who decided what was >>>>>wrong and right, were changing the rules and laws as they saw fit. >>>>>Although they put themselves up as Gods, they were just human beings. >>>>> >>>>>Anita >>>>>>From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history >>>>>><[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>Subject: Re: Gov. Kaine Pardons Gabriel Prosser >>>>>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:25:58 -0400 >>>>>> >>>>>>Somewhere along the line I've read that two wrongs don't make a >>>>>>right. Somewhere. >>>>>> >>>>>>So please let us not trot out these red herrings again. >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>>Lyle Browning >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Sep 3, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Anita Wills wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Yet, >>>>>>>Was it not genocide for Europeans to come into the America and >>>>>>>murder Indians? Was it not genocide to bring millions of Africans >>>>>>>(thousands of whom died), into the Americas, and strip them of >>>>>>>their identies as human beings? If Prosser and Turner knew of >>>>>>>genocide they learned it at the Masters Feet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Anita Wills >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia >>>>>>>>history <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Gov. Kaine Pardons Gabriel Prosser >>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:08:31 -0400 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>From the Associated Press: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>"Virginia governor 'pardons' slave who led 'Gabriel's Rebellion' >>>>>>>>>The Associated Press >>>>>>>>>August 31, 2007 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Where in all this does a comparison of nobility of purpose meet >>>>>>>>means and methods? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Rebellion to become free will justifiably be seen as serving the >>>>>>>>nobility of purpose end of the argument. On that, both the Am Rev >>>>>>>>and Gabriel's Rebellion are equal, albeit at vastly different >>>>>>>>scales. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>At the pointy end of the stick, wherein after the Dec. of Ind. >>>>>>>>was read, measures of a more physical nature were taken. Knowing >>>>>>>>full well what would happen once it was read, one can argue that >>>>>>>>the Am Rev leaders only had to wait for action to develop as the >>>>>>>>authorities moved to put down the venture. Conflict/Civil War >>>>>>>>then ensued with the colonials coming out on top. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In contrast, Turner's higher ideal was simply genocide. >>>>>>>>Indiscriminate killing of men, women and children is murder, >>>>>>>>however draped in the verbiage of freedom. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What separates the Am Rev and possibly Gabriel, from Turner >>>>>>>>certainly is the means and methods by which the ideals may be >>>>>>>>achieved. The Haitian Revolution was at first a bloodbath that >>>>>>>>has been later sanctified by those at several removes from it >>>>>>>>into a glorious expression of freedom. That would appear to >>>>>>>>lessen the value of the lives lost so long as freedom rings. That >>>>>>>>kind of specious reasoning was also inherent in Stalin, Mao and >>>>>>>>Pol Pot, to name but a few whose results justified those means. >>>>>>>>Haitians ended up switching the color of master, but little of >>>>>>>>substance is now discernible, apart from the historiography of >>>>>>>>the event. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Gabriel's aim, according to Edgerton, was not genocide, but rather >>>>>>>>a negotiated settlement ending slavery. However, what muddies >>>>>>>>the waters is the issue of statements made concerning the conduct >>>>>>>>of the rebellion. Basically, join or die seems to have been the >>>>>>>>directive, apart from Methodists, Quakers and Frenchmen. Is >>>>>>>>Edgerton generally viewed as reading the documents correctly or >>>>>>>>has he ventured rather far out onto the revisionist limb? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>For those of you who will undoubtedly jump into the fray, I am >>>>>>>>well aware that in the Am Rev, there were quasi- >>>>>>>>institutionalized incidents of brutal behavior on both Colonial >>>>>>>>and Tory sides, similar probably to the Border Wars in the 1850's >>>>>>>>onward. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>State to state relations were the ideal and the practice during >>>>>>>>the Am Rev, not using genocide as a means of igniting conflict. >>>>>>>>The questions are: Did Gabriel advocate genocide, was he unable >>>>>>>>to control more volatile elements in his group, was genocidal >>>>>>>>advocacy legitimately placed at his door? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Lyle Browning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>Test your celebrity IQ. 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