Well, I guess the answer is the Europeans came to save Indians from themselves. Lucky Us. Anita >From: qvarizona <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history > <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Slavery and Unanswered Questions >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:44:31 -0700 > >Anita, > >Your question regarding Europeans enslaving Indians reminds me that I, too, >have an unanswered questions from a posting I made earlier this year. > >Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:32:33 -0700 (PDT) >From: "qvarizona" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject :Re: Official Opposition Events against Jamestown 2007 > >Just curious. How is it possible that of those protesting the celebration >of Jamestown can completely ignore what went on in this area before the >Europeans arrived? Are they unaware of Wahunsonacock and his conquests? >Have they not read of the raids conducted by the Monacans and Mannahoacs on >their enemies, the Powhatans? Do they know about the Chesapeakes who >lived at the entrance to the bay later named for them and were wiped out >--man, woman, child-- when they tried to resist being absorbed into the >Tsenacommach? >_______________________ > >Foul treatment of the Indians --which included slavery-- was a >cross-cultural problem in Virginia --and around the world-- long before >"discovery" by Europeans or any influence by Islam on worldwide slavery. >To try to limit and/or assign the blame on any one group is pointless >unless we're learning something that might help toward putting a stop to >slavery now. > > >Joanne Kartak > > > > >Anita Wills <[log in to unmask]> wrote: My question is what did Islam >have to do with Europeans enslaving Indians? >No one seems to want to answer that. > >Anita > >From: macbd1 > >Reply-To: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history > > > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Subject: Re: Islamic Slavery (was Re: Slavery and immoral stance, etc.) > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:06:13 -0500 > > > >Let's not be so kind. > > > >While European involvement in the Transatlantic slave trade to the >Americas > >(that included Virginia) lasted for just over three centuries, the Arab > >involvement in slave trade lasted *fourteen* centuries, and in some parts > >of > >the Muslim world is still continuing to this day. Over 28 Million >Africans > >have been enslaved in the Muslim world during this time, with some > >estimates > >being 'much' higher. A comparison of the Muslim slave trade to the > >American > >slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. > > > >While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, > >the proportions were reversed in the Muslim slave trade. Two women for > >every > >man were enslaved by the Muslims. > > > >While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic > >was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the > >Transsahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%! > > > >While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for > >agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East > >were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military > >service. > > > >While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of > >their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very >few > >descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive. >(Maybe > >they were just "incorporated into society," huh??) > > > >While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, > >most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and > >most of the children born to the women were killed at birth. > > > >Of the estimated 11 million Africans transported across the Atlantic (the > >actual number is debatable), approximately 95% went to South and Central > >America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. > >'Only' 4-5% of the total were transported to what was to become > >The United States. (It seems terrible to discuss slavery in statistical > >terms.) > > > >While Christian Reformers spearheaded the antislavery abolitionist > >movements > >in Europe and North America, and Great Britain mobilized her Navy, > >throughout most of the 19th Century, to intercept slave ships and set > >captives free, there was no comparable opposition to slavery within the > >Muslim world. > > > >Even after Britain outlawed the slave trade in 1807 and Europe abolished > >the > >slave trade in 1815, Muslim slave traders enslaved a further 2 million > >Africans. This despite vigorous British Naval activity and military > >intervention to limit the Muslim slave trade. > > > >By some calculations the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Muslim > >slave trade could exceed 180 million. Nearly 100 years after President > >Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in America, and 130 > >years after all slaves within the British Empire were set free by > >parliamentary decree, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, in 1962, and Mauritania in > >1980, begrudgingly removed legalized slavery from their statute books. > > > >And this only after international pressure was brought to bear. Today > >numerous international organizations (and news media) document that >slavery > >in its worst terms still continues in some Muslim countries -- like >Darfur, > >Sudan, Somalia, Mauritania and Chad among others. > > > >Much of the above statistical data from Assyrian International News > >Agency's > >study of many sources, some of which are available online. > >http://www.aina.org/ > > > >My feelings about slavery was posted 3/2/07 during a prior thread > >concerning > >WPA Slave Narratives, see copy far below. With such strongly felt >emotions > >against slavery then and now, by many (including Southerners), wouldn't > >Virginian historians and members at this list be better served to take > >positive action against slavery yet existing in today's Muslim world than > >trying to squeeze more and more out of apologies by today's society, > >whether > >or not their ancestors were slave owners? Emotions by common citizens of > >our Southen States during the sorry times of our nation's Civil War > >involved > >more than slavery. It seems, for some, that 'something' will always be > >lacking from today's apologies, including that of Virginia's > >legislature....it's never quite enough.... > > > >With history discussions at this list repeating 'identical' topics and > >commentary > >about slavery, WPA slave narratives, etc quite often, a young visitor >might > >wonder whether anything else happened in Virginia's past. > > > >Neil McDonald > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Heinegg" > > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:03 PM > >Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Islamic Slavery (was Re: Slavery and immoral >stance, > >etc.) > > > > > >>If you read Lovejoy or other works that discuss the Islamic trade in > >>slaves > >>from Africa to the Middle East, you may be--as I was--amazed to learn >the > >>huge numbers > >>that were involved. > >>------------- > >>Segal estimates it to be about the same as the Atlantic trade, but it >took > >>place over eight centuries+. > >> > >>Many of the men were eunuchs. It is estimated that 1 in 200 potential > >>eunuchs made it alive to their destinations. Those that survived were > >>greatly revered in Muslim society, some becoming generals, heads of >state, > >>etc. In the early 20th century when eunuchs entered the tramcars in > >>Istanbul, all Turks would stand and greet them, and remain standing >until > >>they took their seat. > >> > >>The survival rate from walking 2,500 miles across the Sahara from West > >>Africa to Egypt or Northern Africa was, as you might imagine, much worse > >>than the survival rate in the Atlantic trade on ships. > >> > >>Under pressure from the British the Turks closed the slave market in > >>Istanbul in 1846, but in 1855 "the head of the Muslim community in Mecca > >>issued a fatwa declaring that the ban was a breach of Islamic holy law >and > >>that the Turks were apostates and heathens upon whom it was obligatory >to > >>wage holy war." Slavery was still legal in Saudi in the 1950s and > >>continued > >>to some extent into the 1980s. It was replaced by hiring Filipino and > >>Indian > >>"house maids." When I worked in Saudi, I used to hear my Saudi work >mates > >>joking about taking advantage of their maids. > >> > >>I think the South has the same problem as the Saudis. Emancipation was > >>enforced. The recent state legislature apologies to African Americans >for > >>the damage slavery did to the African American community both before and > >>after slavery is a great stride toward ridding the soul of those past > >>actions. The only thing that is lacking in the apologies is the > >>acknowledgement of how wrong it was for their white ancestors in the >1860s > >>to still be fighting to maintain slavery. One wonders when they would >have > >>agreed to emancipation if left to their own devices. > >> > >>Paul > >> > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "macbd1" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:11 PM > >Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Slave Narrative for WPA Project > > > > > >>How can we allow, let alone participate in, such a bland discussion >about > >>basic human rights, where some even believe, or rather 'say,' that >slaves > >>were apparently happy with their plight. Human slavery and traumatic > >>family upheaval and transportation, is/was such an abomination, so > >>demeaning, so basically inhuman, so cruel, so wrong, so unacceptable. > >>Freedom with liberty for all is man's ultimate way (it's sad that I feel > >>inclined > >>to add for this forum, meaning all of humankind.) Read the words and > >>minds > >>of those who violently rebelled, those who ran away, those who had the > >>will > >>and found the means for obtaining freedom or death, those who sacrificed > >>so much in so many ways, to truly understand. Do the same for the many > >>individuals who helped the rebels and runaways. Think about words of >the > >>old hymn, 'Free at Last,' and interpretations of many other 'old Negro > >>spirituals' (historical context) of the early/mid 19th century. Read > >>other > >>sources, many on-line, for personal letters by slaves and ex-slaves. >Look > >>inside yourself and extrapolate the dots. > >> > >>Should we expect ex-slaves to have exclaimed: I believe it is > >>self-evident, that all men are created equal, that we are endowed, by >our > >>Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, > >>Liberty, > >>and the pursuit of Happiness -- and, by God, never forget as to prevent > >>slavery's recurrence or appearance elsewhere! > >> > >>Some conclusions simply don't require much discussion, IMHO. > >> > >>Neil McDonald > >> > >>An old Scotch-Irishman > >>having early/mid-19th century ancestors > >>just above Ripley, Ohio. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Make every IM count. 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