Dear all,
I've avoided the hollow discussion, my ancestors were in VA from the 1600s to 1870, but I grew up away. However, I went to high school in northwest Pennsylvania (Allegheny Mountains) and you might be interested to know that the hollows, both as descriptions and cultures, run all the way up there.
More importantly, the discussion points up the problem with books written a long time ago. While the "facts" they report may be reliable (or more for frequently just the only place to find them) the authors were always writing in a time that carried its own class distinctions, racial prejudices, etc. Like some of the other commentators, I find it extremely difficult to read such works and a real puzzle as to how to cite them. I've taken to making typed (on the computer) excerpts and specifically including (in red) the portions that display the cultural faults of the time they wrote in. That makes it easier to footnote any reference to the book with a statement as to its failings, with page references. It also means you need to be very careful in reading to separate conclusions that were supposedly common "at the time" of the events from the prejudices actually present in the author when the book was written. Nobody ever said this stuff was easy!
On the DNA subject, it is important to understand the limits of the tests. The most useful test for genealogists is the yDNA test which will trace directly back from son to father as far as anyone would want to go. If you have a male relative in the right position, this is a powerful tool. It's a standard technology and any of the providers will do an adequate job. But, as with any test, please keep in mind that the test can only be of use if you can compare it with, and potentially match, someone else's results. That factor tends to favor using one of the larger providers with a wider pool of potential comparisons.
The other "direct" test is for mitochondrial DNA (MtDNA), this one moves in the opposite direction, from daughter to mother, back through time. The problem for genealogy is, of course, is that every mother will carry a different surname so the progress backwards cuts sideways across surnames. I think this test is likely most useful for the most recent generations and for someone primarily interested in a very confined locality.
The problem defined in Aurelia's and Carole's comments concerns tests that have different names but all purport to give hints as to "all" of someone's relatives. My general impression is that these tests can be helpful in showing a "positive" connection (i.e. one of the comparison names shares a surname with a known family member) but is very spotty in terms of negative information (i.e. failure to report a Native-American or African-American connection can't be relied as proof there isn't such a connection). There is a specialized site, whose name, I believe, is "23 and Me" that has been working on a significantly improved "general" test, but I'm not sure how far that's gotten or if the test is generally available.
Jack Fallin
Walnut Creek, CA
On Nov 28, 2012, at 9:00 PM, VA-ROOTS automatic digest system wrote:
> There are 5 messages totaling 417 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Hollow Folk (4)
> 2. Hollow Folks up and down the Appalachians
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:49:26 -0800
> From: Aurelia Brooks <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Hollow Folk
>
> Carole I understand from some of your comments that you don't feel DNA testing is scientifically correct, as yet, however I would suggest that you get the admixture test from AncestrybyDNA to see what your ethnic breakdown may be. If Native American shows up in your profile, that may answer some of the questions you have and point you in the direction of new research avenues.
> Aurelia
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carole D. Bryant <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [VA-ROOTS] Hollow Folk
>
> The last sentence really opens another "can of worms." The Native
> Americans!
>
> Historians who have attempted to research Virginia families with white and
> Indian background know how difficult (and most often impossible) it is to
> identify them in census records, to locate their marriage records, or to
> find any records of them at all. They are often confused with "free negroes,"
> which makes it a challenge to discover anything about them at all.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Carole
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/2012 9:23:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> Thanks for putting this link into the discussion. I read about 129 pages
> of the Hallow Folks book and was quite disturbed. The articles on the
> Shenandoah Park website give more prospective on the issue. One more proof that
> people with money and the desire to influence public policy can do it. I
> think the park turned out to be a good thing but it would have been better if
> a way could have been found to support the people who lived there,too. Of
> course, we shouldn't forget that all our land originally belonged to the
> Native Americans!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Hist Doc <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Alice,
>>
>> While the names given the three hollows in the book are fictitious,
> Audrey Horning points to the author's intention in this :
> www.nps.gov/shen/historyculture/mtnsettlement.htm<about:blank>
>>
>> As a person who has ancestors from all those hollows, I can only say
> .... well this may be an inappropriate place to say it! It seems the
> government's justification for ruining the lives of so many people was overly
> zealous IMO. Thankfully, Horning's work wipes some of dirt from their faces.
>>
>> R. Burnett Jenkins
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Alice Owens<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: November 26, 2012 11:21 AM
>> Subject: [VA-ROOTS] Hollow Folk
>>
>>
>> I have been reading with much interest the discussion regarding "Hollow
> Folk." I have also been reading online and making notes. At present I am
> about half done. I can't decide whether to continue reading as my feelings
> of utter disgust for those authors and those who "bought into this" just
> trouble me at length. I have spent considerable time in trying to "proove" any
> of this and only today have learned the people and place names are
> fictitious! So, for any of you that felt the same way....I think the best place
> for it is the trash can! off my soapbox now!
>>
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> instructions at
>>
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html<http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html>
>>
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> instructions at
>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
> at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 02:45:59 +0000
> From: Diane S Sanfilippo <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Hollow Folk
>
> The same thing happened all over the south - families and their dearly departed uprooted from the TVA to hundreds of large lakes, and most for purely entertainment purposes. As a child I watched one small town simply disappear as Lake Altoona filled, not knowing then that my ancestors' graves was supposed to be among those relocated - however there are no records where. ...and I imagine that most of us have had this happen. Was it worth it? I have mixed emotions.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [VA-ROOTS] Hollow Folk
>
> Ms. Manscill appears to have swallowed the party line, along with the
> sinker and hook.
>
> She states: "The Shenandoah National Park brought help to an area
> that was suffering from the Great Depression. The CCC camps in the
> Park brought jobs to young men who had little hope for their futures.
> And the Park continues to help the growth and development of the
> surrounding area."
>
> The people driven off the land for the SNP were self-sufficient,
> living simple lives. They were not desperately "suffering from the Great
> Depression." Their lifestyle, being so simple, was not much changed
> by the Depression compared with those whose lives were disrupted by
> the loss of employment and purchasing power in urban areas.
>
> From the perspective of educated, urban policy makers, the simple
> lifestyle was backward, and poor. Their attitude toward those whose
> land ownership stood in the way for a recreational resource for those
> who owned autos, was similar to that of whites describing Native
> Americans as savages while forcing them off the land.
>
> The residents owned the land in most cases. They were paid a lump sum (not
> generous) and made to live in an urban environment for which they were
> unsuited. Most of the land was acquired by the State of Virginia
> prior to the 1930 drought and well before the creation of the CCC in
> 1933. When the park was authorized in 1926, the CCC was not even a
> thought.
>
> The CCC camps brought men from other places (mostly urban) that were
> suffering from the dismal economy. They benefited, as do today's
> hikers, at the
> expense of the former inhabitants.
>
> People with political and economic power imposed their will for their
> own purposes on those who lacked such power, and used propaganda to
> justify their actions. Sic semper populus.
>
> sharpe
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:55:55 -0500
> From: William M <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Hollow Folks up and down the Appalachians
>
> Just for perspective, there are state and national parks throughout the long
> Appalachian mountain range.
> All were acquired by eminent domain laws. Here are some of them by state
> from south to north:
>
> GA: Talladega National Forest, Chahutta National Forest, Chattahoochee
> National Forest
>
> SC: Jocassee Gorge Management Area, Mountain Bridge Wilderness Area
>
> NC: Cherokee National Forest, Great Smokey Mountains National Park
>
> VA: Jefferson National Forest, George Washington National Forest, Highlands
> Wildlife Management Area, Shenandoah National Park, Rapidan Wildlife
> Management Area, Sky Meadows State Park, Thompson State Wildlife Management
> Area
>
> WV: Monongahela National Forest, Canaan Valley National Wildlife Refuge,
> Kumbrabow State Forest, Nathaniel Mountain Wildlife Management Area, Spruce
> Knob-Seneca Rocks National Recreation Area,
>
> MD: Sugarloaf Mountain National Park, Frederick State Park, Garrett State
> Forest, State Mountain State Park, Cunningham Falls State Park, Michaux
> State Forest, Potomac State Forest, Savage River State Forest, Green Ridge
> State Forest, Sleepy Creek Wildlife Management Area
>
> PA: Michaux State Forest, Tuscarora State Forest, Tumbling Run Game Preserve
> and multiple other game preserves, Rothrock State Forest, Bald Eagle State
> Forest, Allegheny National Forest, Mohannon State Forest, Elk State Forest,
> Sproul State Forest, Quehanna Wildlife Preserve, Susquehannock State Forest,
> Tiadaghton State Forest, Tioga State Forest, Loyalsock State Forest,
> multiple game lands
>
> NY: Adirondack National Park, Cherry Ridge Wild Forest, Big Indian
> Wilderness, Willowemoc Wild Forest, Balsam Lake Wild Forest, Phoenicia Wild
> Forest, Bearpen Mountain State Forest, Platteskill State Forest, Catskill
> Park, Huntersfield State Forest, Manorkill State Forest, Bates State Forest,
> High Knob State Forest, Lenard Hill State Forest, Scott Patent State Forest,
> Dutton Ridge State Forest, Burnt Rossman State Forest, Mallet Pond State
> Forest, Petersburg Pass State Forest, Lincoln Mountain State Park, Lake
> Desolation State Park, Shaker Mountain Park, Blue Mountain Park, Blue Ridge
> Park, many states parks are simply named for a mountain,
>
> VT: Green Mountain National Forest, Coolidge State Forest, Groton State
> Forest, Putnam State Forest, Mt Mansfield State Forest
>
> NH: White Mountain National Forest, Nash Stream State Forest, The Kingdom
> State Forest, Victory State Forest, Mt Kearsarge State Forest
>
> MA: Mahoosuc Public Reserve, Bigelow Preserve, Appalachian Mountain
> Wilderness Conservation Area, Nahmakanta Public Reserve
>
> These are all in the Appalachian mountain area. I did not include the many
> state parks around lakes.
>
> Use Google maps to find "Shenandoah Park" then scroll up and down the
> Appalachian range.
>
> William
> www.milaminvirginia.com
>
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 01:07:30 +0000
> From: robert yingst <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Hollow Folk
>
> I have been following with interest the discussion regarding the displacement of people for the creation of Shenandoah National Park. I have researched the subject at great length (including records of the Park at Luray, as well as the National Archives. Library of Virginia and Library of Congress). I have done some writing on the subject.
>
> My grandfather’s land and apple orchard business (planted by his father) was seized for the Park. The last batch of apples he sold was to a company in England for over $10,000, not long before the dedication of the Park at Big Meadows. The cemetery of our ancestors was cut off from access with the taking for the park.
>
> My grandfather sued the Commonwealth of Virginia and Harold Ickes the Secretary of the Interior arguing that taking the land (by Virginia) on the premise that it would be later turned over to the federal government was not a proper basis to claim public purpose and therefore unconstitutional. [Via v Virginia, et al]. He lost in the United States Supreme Court.
>
> Virginia’s effort to take this land was started long before FDR and the CCC. The first plan called for the seizure of over 800,000 acres in the 1920s at a time when the median family income was around $2,500 per year.
>
> Those who visit the park today, and take the time to visit the Visitor center at Big Meadows, can see a picture of my grandfather and a brief description of this event in what is now a more appropriate cultural exhibit recognizing that in addition to the magnificent scenery, people are interested in the people who lived on the mountain and lost their land and their homes.
>
> Robert Yingst
>
> Sent from iCloud
>
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 06:30 AM, sharpe <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Ms. Manscill appears to have swallowed the party line, along with the
> sinker and hook.
>
> She states: "The Shenandoah National Park brought help to an area
> that was suffering from the Great Depression. The CCC camps in the
> Park brought jobs to young men who had little hope for their futures.
> And the Park continues to help the growth and development of the
> surrounding area."
>
> The people driven off the land for the SNP were self-sufficient,
> living simple lives. They were not desperately "suffering from the Great
> Depression." Their lifestyle, being so simple, was not much changed
> by the Depression compared with those whose lives were disrupted by
> the loss of employment and purchasing power in urban areas.
>
> From the perspective of educated, urban policy makers, the simple
> lifestyle was backward, and poor. Their attitude toward those whose
> land ownership stood in the way for a recreational resource for those
> who owned autos, was similar to that of whites describing Native
> Americans as savages while forcing them off the land.
>
> The residents owned the land in most cases. They were paid a lump sum (not
> generous) and made to live in an urban environment for which they were
> unsuited. Most of the land was acquired by the State of Virginia
> prior to the 1930 drought and well before the creation of the CCC in
> 1933. When the park was authorized in 1926, the CCC was not even a
> thought.
>
> The CCC camps brought men from other places (mostly urban) that were
> suffering from the dismal economy. They benefited, as do today's
> hikers, at the
> expense of the former inhabitants.
>
> People with political and economic power imposed their will for their
> own purposes on those who lacked such power, and used propaganda to
> justify their actions. Sic semper populus.
>
> sharpe
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:21:00 -0500
> From: "Carole D. Bryant" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Hollow Folk
>
> There is NO Native American in my "profile," and my ethnic background is
> not in question. However, I have done work for others who seem to have some
> American Indian in their Family Tree. I will mention this to them, as the
> need arises.
>
> Thank you !
> Carole
>
>
> In a message dated 11/28/2012 12:15:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> Carole I understand from some of your comments that you don't feel DNA
> testing is scientifically correct, as yet, however I would suggest that you
> get the admixture test from AncestrybyDNA to see what your ethnic breakdown
> may be. If Native American shows up in your profile, that may answer some
> of the questions you have and point you in the direction of new research
> avenues.
> Aurelia
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carole D. Bryant <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [VA-ROOTS] Hollow Folk
>
> The last sentence really opens another "can of worms." The Native
> Americans!
>
> Historians who have attempted to research Virginia families with white
> and
> Indian background know how difficult (and most often impossible) it is to
> identify them in census records, to locate their marriage records, or to
> find any records of them at all. They are often confused with "free
> negroes,"
> which makes it a challenge to discover anything about them at all.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Carole
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/2012 9:23:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> Thanks for putting this link into the discussion. I read about 129 pages
> of the Hallow Folks book and was quite disturbed. The articles on the
> Shenandoah Park website give more prospective on the issue. One more
> proof that
> people with money and the desire to influence public policy can do it. I
> think the park turned out to be a good thing but it would have been
> better if
> a way could have been found to support the people who lived there,too. Of
> course, we shouldn't forget that all our land originally belonged to the
> Native Americans!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Hist Doc <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Alice,
>>
>> While the names given the three hollows in the book are fictitious,
> Audrey Horning points to the author's intention in this :
> www.nps.gov/shen/historyculture/mtnsettlement.htm<about:blank>
>>
>> As a person who has ancestors from all those hollows, I can only say
> .... well this may be an inappropriate place to say it! It seems the
> government's justification for ruining the lives of so many people was
> overly
> zealous IMO. Thankfully, Horning's work wipes some of dirt from their
> faces.
>>
>> R. Burnett Jenkins
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Alice Owens<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: November 26, 2012 11:21 AM
>> Subject: [VA-ROOTS] Hollow Folk
>>
>>
>> I have been reading with much interest the discussion regarding
> "Hollow
> Folk." I have also been reading online and making notes. At present I am
> about half done. I can't decide whether to continue reading as my
> feelings
> of utter disgust for those authors and those who "bought into this" just
> trouble me at length. I have spent considerable time in trying to
> "proove" any
> of this and only today have learned the people and place names are
> fictitious! So, for any of you that felt the same way....I think the best
> place
> for it is the trash can! off my soapbox now!
>>
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> instructions at
>>
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html<http://listlva.lib.va.us/arc
> hives/va-roots.html>
>>
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> instructions at
>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>
> at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
> at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
> at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of VA-ROOTS Digest - 27 Nov 2012 to 28 Nov 2012 (#2012-156)
> ***************************************************************
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