I agree. My delete\r button is getting overtaxed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Yingst" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Are Martha Jefferson and Sally Hemings Half-Sisters?
> Move on?
> This discussion is on point with all of the issues with which we
> genealogists wrestle. We have DNA proponents on our list who see DNA's
> value to the quest for the definition of "family." These discussions help
> us understand the meaning of family. We are people, not pure bred dogs.
> History (oral and written), documents, DNA and context are critical.
> Moving away from this discussion is not necessarily moving toward
> genealogy. This discussion is the very essence of genealogy. Think about
> it. When children are fathered outside of the "father's name" are they to
> be cast off into some footnote in our writing and research? History and
> context make them a part of a "family." Are we real genealogists if
> ignore their importance and meaning to the following generations? Some
> seem to be looking for a "legitimate" connection to a king or scoundrel.
> Let the discussion on this subject take us where the evidence leads.
> Ideas
> for finding the truth is a worthy endeavor and this discussion seems to
> help genealogists think - inside and outside the box.
> Rob
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Bill Cross <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 03/28/06 10:33:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: Are Martha Jefferson and Sally Hemings Half-Sisters?
>>
>> Mr. Barger,
>>
>> I appreciate your passion in this matter, but I agree with the others
> here on the list that it's time to move this topic back to genealogy.
>>
>> I remain unpersuaded by your evidence, so there's little point in your
> listing it again and again. I would, however, point out (since this is a
> genealogy forum) that DNA evidence is useful, though not always
> definitive,
> in an age when the written record is often so sketchy, especially for the
> non-persons of society (slaves, blacks, indentured servants, the poor in
> general).
>>
>> In my own case, I have searched for years to connect the dots from my
> Missouri Chapmans back to VA, and recently found them in Caroline County.
> But because of the paucity of written records, I'm still unable to move
> back even a generation from where I was 35 years ago. The president of the
> Chapman Family Association once told me that there were more "problems"
> with VA Chapmans than any other region.
>>
>> Bill Cross
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Herbert Barger
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: Are Martha Jefferson and Sally Hemings Half-Sisters?
>>
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Yes, we all deserve accurate and fair reporting of ALL known facts in
> this
>> case and in any research........not politically correct manipulation of
>> known results for various agendas and the tainting of our children's
>> textbooks. I am no authority on DNA either, however explaining this
> case is
>> simple and I am sure you will understand. I assisted Dr. Foster with
>> the
>> test. He gathered DNA from 19 sources. He took it to the University of
>> Virginia Medical Department where some processing was made as I
> understand
>> it. He then delivered the DNA raw research to England and it was tested
>> there and in two other locations. As early as June 1998 he had the
> results
>> back, however the Nature Journal article was not to appear until Nov.
>> 5,
>> 1998. His whole mission was to prove or disprove that the Carr brothers
> were
>> a match or not with anyone (the history books stated they were
> suspects.)
>> When there was NO match for them there was NO OTHER person left in the
>> equation except Thomas Jefferson. All family genealogy I had given Dr.
>> Foster to use in considering results was NOT given Nature and THUS they
>> issued (or negotiated) at false and misleading headline, "Jefferson
> fathers
>> slaves last child", a complete LIE........but that is what the media
>> was
>> awaiting. US News and World Report and other media supposedly jumped
>> the
>> Nature "embargo" on the story. Many charges and assumptions arose, like
> why
>> was it conveniently released one day prior to election, why was it used
> to
>> support the sitting president's position for non impeachment and other
>> agendas evolved. DNA of unbroken male line surnames was required, but
> only
>> ONE Hemings was tested. The Hemings family will not give permission to
> test
>> another later found male...they are happy with their oral family
> history.
>>
>> You mention that you are unpersuaded by my stance and state that
> Monticello
>> takes a neutral stance. I beg to differ and site a few things for you.
> Do
>> you consider a Monticello statement that not only one but possibly ALL
> of
>> Sally's children had the father, Thomas Jefferson is accurate? MY what
>> a
>> NON-scientific statement from the center of Jefferson research. Dan
> Jordan,
>> Monticello President, knows well what the DNA proved.....: NO DNA match
> for
>> the long held and MAJOR beliefs of the Woodson Family. He also knew
>> well
>> that ONLY ONE Hemings matched "some" Jefferson DNA.........NOTHING
> proves
>> that it came from Thomas. The DNA does not honor given names. He also
> was
>> informed of the existance of the Hemings male descendant, William
> Hemings,
>> months prior to his release of his Research Report. Not only did he not
>> persue this lead but he told me to NOT pressure the Hemings and he made
> no
>> effort to suggest that they permit the test, what kind of selective
> research
>> is this? His above mentioned report was released with a Minority Report
> from
>> an employee member of this study group, Dr. Ken Wallenborn, MISSING.
> Upon
>> learning of this DENIAL of an important Minority Report I contacted the
>> Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation and requested an investigation.
>> Dr.
>> Wallenborn was issued an apology by Dr. Jordan and his report may now
>> be
>> read on www.angelfire.com/va/TJTruth anmd www.tjheritage.org. The full
>> Scholars Commission Report (13 prominent full professors) may also be
> found
>> here and they were critical of some of the Monticello assessments.
>>
>> Bill, I agree with your statements about whether Jefferson fathered
> slave
>> children or not......I also care less, HOWEVER, to me revelation of
> accurate
>> truth is important. That is why I and others founded the Thomas
> Jefferson
>> Heritage Society and that is why honest scholars volunteered their
>> independant study of over a year to bring the truth of the findings to
> the
>> public. Just as in medicine.......ALWAYS ask for a second opinion.
> no one
>> has a strangle hold on Mr. Jefferson's legacy...we all own his legacy
> and
>> that angers some people. He is innocent of such charges.
>>
>> Herb Barger
>> Jefferson Family Historian
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Cross [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 6:29 PM
>> To: Herbert Barger; [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Are Martha Jefferson and Sally Hemings Half-Sisters?
>>
>>
>> Mr. Berger,
>>
>> I would like to say that I support a truthful exploration of the
>> facts
>> concerning President Jefferson and his slave, Sally Hemings. I do not
> have a
>> full understanding of the DNA science involved, nor its conclusions,
>> and
>> freely admit so in advance. I am in this a lay person who has followed
> the
>> passionate debate with interest and curiosity. I have looked at
> accounts on
>> both sides of the issue, and am unpersuaded by your vehemence in the
> matter.
>> Even Monticello takes a neutral stance, given the paucity of evidence
>> in
>> this matter.
>>
>> However, I should like to state for the record that as a descendant
> of the
>> Old Dominion (via Missouri), and with ancestors who fought for the
>> preservation of slavery, IT MAKES NOT ONE WHIT OF DIFFERENCE TO ME
> WHETHER
>> JEFFERSON FATHERED SLAVE CHILDREN OR NOT. Please forgive my use of
> capitals,
>> but I have detected in this discussion, and for years in other
> discussions
>> about the topic, a repugnance at the thought, as if it made any real
>> difference, that Jefferson might have black descendents, and an
> indignation
>> at those who would advance the theory. If I misunderstand your
> position, I
>> apologize.
>>
>> While it would be interesting to know whether Sally Hemings was, in
> fact,
>> Jefferson's mistress, it would not take one scintilla of greatness away
> from
>> him, nor would it reduce in any way his standing as one of our greatest
>> presidents. Those who decry the hypocrisy of the author of the
> Declaration
>> of Independence having carnal relations with his "property" fail to
> note the
>> deeper hypocrisy the Founding Fathers perpetrated on this country, when
> they
>> announced the birth of their new nation by stating that "all men are
> created
>> equal," then left the institution of slavery intact and for another
>> generation to tackle. Divisions over slavery undermined the health of
> the
>> new country almost from the start, and led inexorably to the Civil War.
>> While there are those who today try to minimize that importance of
> slavery
>> as the cause of that conflagration, any open-minded person who reads
> widely
>> in the literature of the period will see that nothing else so consumed
> men
>> and women on both sides. But I digress.
>>
>> Bill Cross
>> --
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