Hi, Bill.  "Elder" has not had a clear precise meaning since the time of Henry VIII.  In your instances, it likely meant one who is higher in rank and influence than the minister to a congregation. 

By 1750, it usually meant simply one who was or had been very active in the church and who had gained the respect of that discipline or congregation.

Johnson (1755) wrote that it had subtle differences in definition.  Sir Walter Raleigh said "Persons whose age gives them reverence"; Pope said it might mean simply ancestors in the context of families.

Johnson also said, "...among the Jews, "Rulers of the people"; in the New Testament, "ecclesiastiks"(sp?); among Presbyterians, "Laymen introduced into the Kirk Polity" and also in colonial times an ecclesiastic who was within the senate of the Presbytery.  It also was an early word of the Scots, meaning usually a "senior member of the church".  

Now, very often, any senior member or other person having a duty in the policies (and administration) of the church.

Paul      


- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Davidson 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:15 AM
  Subject: [VA-ROOTS] The Title/Designation of "Elder"


  I note from a book at the LOVa on "old" marriages that several ministers were 
  sometimes referred to as "Elder" on marriage bonds.  A pair of 28 Feb 1844 
  marriages bonds in Campbell Co., VA seem to have been for a "double 
  wedding" (that was ultimately held on 16 May 1844).  Elizabeth A. Davidson 
  married a Mr. Bagby, and Paulina Davidson married a Mr. Diuguid, and "Elder" 
  Samuel Davidson was listed on the marriage bonds as the father.  In addition, 
  however, "Elder" John Chambers Hamner was listed as the minister (though he 
  was shown as "Reverend" on some other marriage bonds).  Does the above 
  designation/title of "Elder" for Samuel Davidson necessarily imply that he was 
  ALSO a minister?

  There were two unrelated (apparently) Samuel Davidsons of about the same 
  age in Campbell Co., VA in the 1840s, and one WAS a minister (Reverend 
  Samuel Davidson married Frances Oglesby in 1802, and he was the pastor of 
  Red Oak Baptist Church from about 1815 until about 1855).  Some clues 
  suggest, however, that the above two brides MIGHT very well have been the 
  daughters of the OTHER Samuel Davidson in Campbell Co., VA (he married 
  Elizabeth Thornhill in 1813, and as far as I can tell, he was not a minister).  
  The 1840 census is inconclusive as to which man was the father of these two 
  woman (the age ranges of the females in the home of each man don't seem to 
  exactly agree with the ages of both of these brides, but at least the Samuel 
  Davidson who married Miss Thornhill had two apparent daughters....where the 
  Reverend had only one female in his home in 1840, other than his wife, if we 
  can believe the census).  Could the use of "Elder" for Samuel Davidson have 
  simply meant that he was an elder in his church (but not a minister), despite 
  the fact that the same designation was used for the minister on the above 
  two marriage bonds?  On the other hand, if the father WAS, in fact, the 
  Reverend who married Miss Oglesby, I wonder why he would not have 
  performed this double ceremony himself (was there any prohibition against 
  that)?  Thanks!


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