The question of state, over beside/with, or against, national patriotism is an interesting one. A man like Robert E. Lee could use his loyalty to justify or rationalize - words not necessary meant to have negative connotations - his chosing to follow Virginia out of the the Union. This although he seems to have sincerely believed (in his own way at least - also with necessarily negative connotations) that secession was bad, the Union was good, and (in some way, though perhaps not as we see it) slavery was wrong as well.

At the same time, other Virginians, other Southerners, in fact could consider it loyalty to the Union certainly, and perhaps also to thier native state, to not secede when that state did. George (_?_) whose last name escapes me at the moment, could find it so in staying in the US Army, becoming the 'Rock of Chickamauga' and being (sadly, ungraciously) rejected by his Virginia family after that war.

There is a letter written by John S. Mosby to a friend after the war in which he explains how though opposed to slavery, he and many others could go with, and fight for Virginia. Many would condemn the likes of him for "treason," and many do criticize Lee - often going too far in tearing him off the old pedestal - for having thoughts and perceptions, holding views best understood (if understood at all) in the context of time and place.

This is not to absolve "sinners" of their wrongs, though the Constitution's provision on treason, as with everything else, is open to some interpretation. Rather, to accept that some perspective needs to be maintained. Historians and others are as likely to lose that in favor of discrediting sincere and thoughtful men, as some others these days are of giving them to much of perhaps the wrong kind of credit.

For myself, I am a native-born son of Virginia currently residing in Florida. I consider myself an American as I do a Virginian, and yes, I am a Floridian as well. I try be to an active, concerned citizen of the local, state, and national communities of which I am a part, recognizing both shared and divergent interests between and among these, and a concerned child of the Old Dominion as well.

Whether under the right circumstances I would recognize a 'state of nature' to be in effect, or a proper dissolution of the Union to have occurred is a question I cannot now, and hope to never have to answer.
---
Jarl K. Jackson





On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:49:34
 David Kiracofe wrote:
>My thanks to Constantine Gutzman for clarifying Henry's remark -- I am
>indebted.  It was laziness on my part to call up the example -- it does
>SOUND like a polar opposite from the Randolph quotation -- but of course
>it is no reflection of Henry's allegiances, but of the constitutional
>dilemma of the early 1770s.  Anyhow, I stand by my main point that
>antebellum Americans did not see holding a patriotic allegiance to their
>native states as contradictory to their loyalty as Americans -- indeed,
>for many state identity was the lens through which they saw themselves as
>Americans.
>
>David Kiracofe
>College of Charleston
>
>On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:00:53 -0400 Constantine Gutzman wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Kiracofe" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 1:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: Hampton (Virginia) National Cemetary: 757.723.7104
>>
>>
>> > In regard to the recent discussions of state versus national loyalties,
>> > the truth seems to lie somewhere between the two poles of "my country is
>> > Virginia" (Randolph of Roanoke) and "I am not a Virginian but an
>> > American" (Patrick Henry -- please excuse the rough paraphrasing).
>>
>> One must be careful in order to interpret Henry's famous statement
>> accurately.  Henry's statement here represented one side in a debate
>> within
>> Virginia, that over the question what George III's constructive abdication
>> as King of Virginia legally meant.  Some people, such as Thomas
>> Jefferson ,
>> insisted that the king's abdication merely opened up the possibility of
>> naming a new governor; for them, there was no state of nature.
>> Others, like
>> Henry (and, unless memory fails, John Page -- it has been a while since I
>> read this material), said that since every officeholder in Virginia, from
>> the county courts to the House of Burgesses, held his office
>> mediately from
>> the king, the end of the House of Hanover in Virginia meant that no
>> officer
>> in Virginia held legitimate governmental power anymore.  Virginia, as
>> Henry
>> understood the matter, rested in a perfect Lockean state of nature, along
>> with the other rebellious colonies.
>>
>> Seemingly, most Virginians opted for Jefferson's argument:  The colonial
>> government continued to operate, insofar as it could, until the
>> adoption of
>> the May Convention's 1776 Virginia Constitution.  It was much easier
>> simply
>> to allow the militia, the county courts, etc., to continue to operate
>> as if
>> nothing had happened than it would have been to assume there was no law of
>> any kind in Virginia until a representative body could be convened to
>> create
>> new, republican institutions.  Henry's statement came in the context
>> of his
>> insistence in the same speech that there was no law anymore in (formerly)
>> British North America (Canada excepted), so there were no longer any
>> boundaries among the colonies.  (Those boundaries, too, had all been drawn
>> by the kings -- or, in a couple of cases, by Cromwell's Parliament.)
>> Henry
>> found himself in the awkward situation of being an American, not a
>> Virginian, at a particular moment, but that was a diagnosis based on his
>> political theory, not a statement reflecting the relative strengths of his
>> affections.
>>
>> Constantine Gutzman
>> Department of History
>> Western Connecticut State University
>>
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>> at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>
>
>
>David Kiracofe
>
>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>


Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/

To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html