Lyle,
Fawn Brodie's book presumes a loving relationship between Thomas Jefferson
and Sally Hemings. She took the "high road" and suggested that it was a long
love affair that was the basis of the relationship. Yet, those who insist
that TJ could not be the father of her children or involved in a mysogenic
relationship say that is not "proven". If so, the only other logical
conclusion is that Sally was forced to have relations with whomever the
father was.
An assumption that she agreed to the relationship is as unproven as that of
whom the relationship was with (at this point anyway).
But, I am going to be the first to say, it is time to wrap up this
discussion. Any who would be pursuaded by the evidence, have made up their
mind, and the rest of us need to agree to disagree.
Anne Pemberton
[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/apembert
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: What is the current defination of "revisionist history"?
> On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>
>> Lyle,
>>
>> Can you cite any cases where a white man was convicted of raping a
>> slave, especially his own slave or that of a close relative? Had Thomas
>> Jefferson or his brother acted without Sally's consent, what course
>> would she have taken to achieve justice? How often was such a course
>> successful? How often was it attempted?
> I am not, but then my knowledge of law is rather limited. Perhaps others
> of a more legal persuasion would be able to answer that from case law.
> BUT, that wasn't my point. Rape is illegal is one end of the extreme,
> consensual relations are at the other. My point is that not all
> relationships across the "color line" were coercive. I can cite cases
> where marriages occurred and lasted. In one case, the remainder of the
> family "forgot" them completely and it was through archaeological
> research that they were rediscovered. Interesting story in itself, that.
>>
>>
>> Is "broadbrushing" in error?
> Yes. All "you fill in the blank" are "you fill in the blank" is but one
> example. Stereotypical broadbrushing is a useful historical tool when
> used to inform and to elucidate. When used pejoratively as you have, it
> is not useful.
>
>> There is a legal terms that mean "the thing stands for itself" (can't
>> remember my latin at the moment), and I think that is relevent in this
>> case.
> That would be dragging the definition well beyond its intended meaning
> and intent.
>>
>>
>> My personal feeling is that the statement of the mother should stand as
>> unequivocable proof of the paternity of a child until or unless it is
>> proven otherwise.
> Oh great, and that's why fathers today are paying child support for
> children who are not theirs. "He did it" works best when ignorance is
> rampant.
>
>> Sally told her children who their father was. End of issue.
> Again for the thousandth time, oral history is not necessarily right. It
> is hardly the end of the issue as the vehement discourse on this list
> amply illustrates. Oral history must be taken for what it is and not as
> an absolute.
>
>> She told Eston a different story from Madison. There were two different
>> fathers. But, Madison said his mother said that Thomas Jefferson was his
>> father, and in absence of any solid proof that this is wrong, that
>> should be the end of the matter.
> That is just wrong on so many levels it amazes me that you would think it
> remotely valid. Do not confuse what you want to believe with what may be
> any of 3 variables of what actually happened.
>>
>>
>> Is there one shred of evidence that Thomas Jefferson was not the father?
> Is there one shred that he is? The short answer is no, as according to
> DNA the Scottish verdict is: case not proved.
>
>> He said that Callendar's allegations were wrong except for the one for
>> which he was compelled, for the sake of the honor of the cuckolded
>> husband, to admit. TJ even lied to his daughters prior to being forced
>> to confess, about his behavior, and even in his apology, admitted that
>> he misbehaved once, when young and unmarried, whereas the woman he
>> wronged had said he persisted over 10 years, including after he was
>> married and even when in the same building as his wife. So, if we apply
>> Herbert Barger's standards of "liars", I think we can assert that on
>> this issue we cannot accept Jefferson's word that he didn't do it.
> I think you are applying an impossibly high standard and are logically
> incorrect in your conclusion. Hands up all who haven't made an error or
> three in their lives, but that does not mean that all errors can be laid
> at their doorstep.
>
> Again, all the bloviation in the world from both extremes of this issue
> is not going to solve anything. Both sides have marshaled their arguments
> back and forth ad nauseum and we are exactly where we were since the DNA
> results came back, except that folks have completely misunderstood them
> and have acted accordingly and incorrectly with conclusions that are not
> supported by the evidence.
>
> Lyle Browning
>
>
>>
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> Anne Pemberton
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
>> >
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: What is the current defination of "revisionist history"?
>>
>>
>>> It seems to me that you are rather broad-brushing the issue. Outright
>>> rape was and is illegal, despite the roadblocks that were put into
>>> place to exclude blacks from the courtroom.
>>>
>>> Coercion, both overt and covert, undeniably took place. But your claim
>>> exceeds the bounds when it asserts that all such acts were coercive.
>>>
>>> You are also of the mindset that the impetus was directly and only
>>> from the male. Bimbette of 20 snares rich old guy of 80 springs to
>>> mind. Purity of heart is not a universal, nor is venality, but it does
>>> exist.
>>>
>>> There are those situations which resulted in the marriage of the two
>>> individuals of different races.
>>>
>>> Life is way more complicated and it is difficult if not impossible to
>>> ascertain absolutes in individual cases. Historic trends rely on
>>> safety in numbers as to results, but as to motive, debates will
>>> continue.
>>>
>>> Lyle Browning
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:03 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Herbert,
>>>>
>>>> I seriously doubt that you have found any of those authors "with
>>>> their hand in the till" to any greater extent than that of any other
>>>> author who write a book and expects to profit from the sales. Your
>>>> constant mischaracterization of people you don't know beans about is
>>>> one more nail in the coffin of your idea of "truth" vs "lies".
>>>>
>>>> As to my website, it is a volunteer effort on my part and the site is
>>>> provided by a charitable organization, The Enabling Support
>>>> Foundation http://www.enabling.org founded by a good friend, Dr.
>>>> Robert Zenhausern who provides all funding for the foundation and
>>>> supports the server my works lives on. You may find it of interest
>>>> that my first website was on Virginia's PEN (it has only come off in
>>>> the past few months since I no longer keep it up). I assume that you
>>>> would know that Virginia's PEN, for which I was one of the original
>>>> builders, was the joint project of the DOE and UVA. I ran the Academy
>>>> One project on Virginia's PEN, which was the forerunner of
>>>> Educational Synthesis: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>>
>>>> You may also note that my website ends with a "org". That means I do
>>>> not market ANYTHING! The stories I write both under My Own Books and
>>>> Famous Americans, are free to any user, and the users are from just
>>>> about every country in the world. I have, as an aside, written one
>>>> book, but it is not on history, which is sold in a paper version. I
>>>> do not "advertise" it on this list and am not doing so now.
>>>>
>>>> Now, as to miscegynation, it is a disgrace when practiced, as is
>>>> evident in the current population in Virginia, without the consent of
>>>> the woman. As a slave, the woman had no right to refuse the master
>>>> anything he ordered, whether it was to service his needs, or that of
>>>> his friends and relatives. To assert that this cannot be "proved"
>>>> without an admission of the white man, is to continue, in the 21st
>>>> century, the abusive mindset of the time of slavery. Every one of
>>>> those half-white children had a father, and with today's scientific
>>>> advancements, and those that will come tomorrow, it IS possible to
>>>> ascertain with scientific certainty which white man did the deed.
>>>> White men who practice abusive sex are no longer shielded by the
>>>> notion that only those children they "acknowledge" are theirs.
>>>>
>>>> And, it is assertions such as you made today about mixed race
>>>> children being "fatherless" unless the skunk who did it chooses to
>>>> "fess up" that is the reason behind my statement that Jefferson,
>>>> being a man and a Virginian, and with the circumstancial evidence
>>>> I've personally examined, is highly likely to be the father of Sally
>>>> Hemings children. And, if he is not the father, but the uncle, he was
>>>> a PIMP!
>>>>
>>>> Anne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anne Pemberton
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Barger" <[log in to unmask]
>>>> >
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:25 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: What is the current defination of "revisionist history"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Anne,
>>>>>
>>>>> If evidence found and supported by science or other provable
>>>>> historical
>>>>> records then I would consider that "historical information." On the
>>>>> other hand, if the researchers were "caught with their hand in the
>>>>> till"
>>>>> as I have found with people around the TJ/Sally controversy and their
>>>>> reports were biased/one sided and denied and HID a Minority Report
>>>>> and
>>>>> the head researcher had been hired to complement the study with their
>>>>> owned preconceived outcome........THEN I would say, "it's revisionist
>>>>> garbage."
>>>>>
>>>>> I would hope that your own highly advertised organization on these
>>>>> (state/commonwealth) supported pages, is not misrepresenting real
>>>>> research to purchasers of your material. You do ask for proof do you
>>>>> not?
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb Barger
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Herbert,
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe I am correct in saying that most historians of the last
>>>>> century
>>>>> were in agreement that Sumer (Sumeria) was the earliest civilization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then, if I am reading a book that dates evidence of cities with
>>>>> public
>>>>> buildings and agriculture in Peru to at least as far back as 3500 BC
>>>>> based
>>>>> on evidence discovered in this century, would you consider that new
>>>>> historical information, or "revisionist history"????
>>>>>
>>>>> Anne
>>>>>
>>>>> Anne Pemberton
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
>>>>> instructions at
>>>>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________
>>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
>>>> instructions at
>>>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________
>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
>>> instructions at
>>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>
>> ______________________________________
>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions
>> at
>> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>
> ______________________________________
> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions
> at
> http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
______________________________________
To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at
http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
|
