Sometimes I agree with you (Paul Finkelman) and sometimes I don't, but I appreciate someone willing to point out that it's not a good idea to use Caps when writing email --or anything else, for that matter. I don't mind the "shouting" as much as I do the fact that it's doggone hard to read!
Joanne
Paul Finkelman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Ms. Mills:
I am not sure what makes you think that; I am simply pointing out that
in the age of Jefferson there were many people who were willing to do so
something about slavery and that Jefferson was not one of them;
thousands of Virginians freed their slaves, for example. Jefferson
wasnot one of them. Between 1780 and 1810 the free black population of
Va. grew from about 2,000 to over 30,000. This growth was due to
private manumissions by thousands of individual Virginians, maybe even
some of those in your 13 generations in the Commonwealth. Jefferson
opposed such acts and opposed any measures designed to end slavery; in
1820 he opposed a bad on slavery in the western territories.
Racism, as you point out, is a fluid term with a meaning that changes
over time. TJ was the first American to argue for the innate
inferiority of blacks. He did so pretty early -- 1783 -- in Notes on
the State of Virginia; and then he opposed rights for free blacks.
Similiarly, he opposed private manumission and public emancipation.
All of this is pretty well known, and should not surprise anyone, just
as it no longer surprises people that he held his own children in
slavery as well has his half-sister-in-law (Sally Hemings) and his
half-brothers-in-law. This may have made him like many other southern
white men (maybe some of those in your 13 generations) who owned their
own children and enslaved their relatives. But, many Virginians
(again, maybe some of those in your 13 generations) did not act that
way. If you are asking me whether I think Washingon or Edward Coles, or
John Pleasant, of the countless other Virginians who free their slaves
are more admirable than Jefferson, the answer is yes. Were all these
people racial egalitarians according to our social norms. But, were the
more supprtive of racial fairness than most Virginians -- and more so
than TJ -- the answer is clearly yes.
One moreo thing, if you are going to respoind, please take your "Caps
lock" off the computer, as most of the time when someone writes in all
caps it seems as if the person is yelling on the computer screen. I am
sure as a 13th generation Virginian you don't intend to me yelling at
me, but are rather asking good questions about the nature of history.
(I should add that my son is a first generation Virginian!)
--
Paul Finkelman
Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
918-631-3706 (office)
918-631-2194 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask] wrote:
>MR FINKELMAN,
>SO, YOU'RE SAYING THAT SOME RACISTS WERE BETTER RACISTS THAN OTHER RACISTS?
>DFM
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Finkelman"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 6:55 PM
>Subject: Re: Fw: "common-sense Jeffersonian conservative principles"
>
>
>
>
>>Dear Ms. Mills:
>>
>>I just posted something along these lines; I guess is has not yet
>>surfaced; in case it got lost in cyberspace, I append it to this message.
>>
>>=================
>>
>>we debate these issues every few years. For a long discussion of how
>>Jefferson helped invent scientific racism, look at the last two chapters
>>of my book, SLAVERY AND THE FOUNDERS: RACE AND LIBERTY IN THE AGE OF
>>JEFFERSON, 2nd ed. 2001. In that book I judge Jefferson by the
>>standards of his own time; compared to many other founders, Jefferson
>>does not fare well. I think Jefferson should be judged the standards of
>>his own time; compare his view on race to those of Washington, Franklin,
>>Hamilton, Adams, as well as his many European friends, or John and Henry
>>Laurens in South Carolina, or LaFayette.
>>As for the Indian removal. I don't have the cite handy but shortly
>>after buying Louisiana he proposed moving Indians out of hte Southeast
>>and shipping them west.
>>
>>TJ may have believed rocks could not fall from the sky, but he could not
>>consuct the experiment. He also believed that the blood of blacks was
>>darker than the blood of whites, that they smelled worse than whites,
>>and that the were incapable of forming loving relationships like whites.
>>Over the course of his adult life he owned more than 400 slaves; and he
>>could certainly have observed many things about them. He sold off more
>>than 80 in a ten year period (contrast this to Washington who never sold
>>a slave or Madison who only sold a few to neighbors late in life when he
>>literally could not afford to maintain them). Surley while selling off
>>these slaves he would have been able to observe how the slaves felt
>>about the destruction of their families. Washington said you do not
>>take men to market like cattle. Jefferson sent scores to market like
>>cattle. I agree, judge him by the standards of his own world. When his
>>neighbor Edward Coles wanted to free his slaves, Jefferson told him not
>>to do it and refused to take a public stand supporting either private
>>manumissions or gradual abolition. When his friend St. George Tucker
>>(the law professor at William and Mary and a judge) proposed a scheme
>>for ending slavery in Va. Jefferson refused to endorse it, or come up
>>with one of his own.
>>
>>Yes, I agree completely. Judge him against the best of his generation.
>>
>>
>>=================
>>
>>[log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>MR FINKELMAN,
>>>I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO, IN YOUR ILLUSTRIOUS OPINION, MIGHT NOT HAVE
>>>
>>>
>BEEN A "THOROUGH GOING RACIST" OR, FOR THAT MATTER, JUST A PLAIN, LONG, OLD,
>REGULAR RACIST, IN THE 18TH CENTURY WESTERN WORLD. DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT IF
>YOU HAD BEEN ALIVE IN THE 18TH CENTURY, WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF THE HINDSIGHT
>OF A 21ST CENTURY PERSON, YOU JUST MIGHT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN A TYPICAL,
>AVERAGE, NORMAL WHITE MAN WHO PRESUMED, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE (EXCEPT THE MAN
>OF COLOR), THAT THE WHITE RACE WAS THE SUPERIOR RACE?
>
>
>>>GIVE ME A BREAK: EVERYONE WAS A THOROUGH GOING RACIST BACK THEN.
>>>
>>>
>EVERYONE!
>
>
>>>DEANE MILLS
>>>13TH GENERATION (PROVEN) VIRGINIAN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 3:24 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Re: "common-sense Jeffersonian conservative principles"
>>>he was a thorough going
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>racist, who believed that blacks were mentally inferior to whites, and
>>>>>he wanted to remove all Indians to someplace else (like where I live);
>>>>>he invented the Indian removal.
>>>>>
>>>>>Unlike modern conservaitves, he believed in balanced budgets and worked
>>>>>at them; he was a free trader, except when it came to the Embargo
>>>>>against Haiti and then Europe.
>>>>>
>>>>>Unlike moderns conservatives, he believed in a small military and
>>>>>avoided military adventurism whenever possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, unlike modern Consrvatives and Republicnas, he did, to his great
>>>>>credit, believe in religious freedom and a strict separation of Church
>>>>>and State.
>>>>>
>>>>>Finally, of course, he believed in racial subordination and slavery. I
>>>>>will refrain from commenting on whether that fits with the
>>>>>administration or Sen. Allen
>>>>>
>>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>
>>>>
>instructions
>
>
>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Paul Finkelman
>>Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>3120 East 4th Place
>>Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
>>
>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>
>>
>
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