Kevin and John are right that my query had to do with the juxtaposition of  

the 1776 Va Declaration of Rights and Va Constitution of 1776.

We frankly know a great deal more about the antecedents and drafting of the  

Bill of Rights appended to the US Constitution - though the question  

of 'placement' came up in the latter process, too. -- only the question was  

whether to disperse the amendments at appropriate places throughout the  

text of the current US Constitution or (as was decided) append them at the  

end. (In fact I rummaged through several of the major works on the B of  

Rights and ran a couple of JSTOR searches before posting the query).



James Madison did have a significant role in the drafting of the Va  

Declaration of Rights - although as he points out in his autobiography he  

was young (just barely 25) and it was his first time in office beyond  

Orange County and he said little or nothing in debates ... but he DID press  

for the significant change in the clause about religious liberty - and  

successfully replaced Mason's language about _toleration_ with a full-blown  

commitment to religious liberty.



Still, on the matter of placing the Declaration of Rights before the  

Constitution, the convention had decided upon that in the May 15th  

resolution, in language introduced by Meriwether Smith and retained by  

Pendleton, three days before Mason (delayed by gout) arrived in Wmsburg and  

without, according the evidence we have, any participation by Madison.....  

And of course my query goes to the question of antecedents that might have  

influenced Smith.



All best,

jk





On , Walter Waddell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> With no intent of being flippant, one would have trouble becoming  

> authoritatively conversant on the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, let  

> alone its “placement”, in our Constitution without first studying  

> “Madison's Notes” for the purpose of understanding the complexity of the  

> debate about the “Constitutional” idea itself.

> To the more specific: From my readings, “advocacy” for inclusion of a  

> “Bill of Rights” was widely held as these leaders of that time were aware  

> of and in admiration of the ideas that were coming from the “Scottish”  

> intellectuals and other Europeans: reasoning that the individual  

> “transcended” the “mob“.

> As to who said it first: your message seems to have "nailed the jelly to  

> the tree" absent further citations.

> I shall follow this "thread" with interest.

> Regards, Ray

> ______________________________________



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