Jeff,
As, I have mentioned to an earlier poster, the VA-HIST is large enough
for you or anyone else to post your preferences. Don't suggest to deny a
discussion on an extremely important matter for both Mr. Jefferson, Va.,
and the nation and yes, the world also. Because you may not understand
or care, the controversy is very important to the well being of our
country.
Herb Barger
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Smith, Jeff (DHR)
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
Good call. I've read/heard more than enough about this very moot
discussion. Take if off-line and allow this to be a forum for timely
discussions and a vehicle for providing assistance for scholarly
research to your colleagues.
Jeff Smith, MA, MLIS
DSS Architecture Inventory Manager
Archives
Virginia Department of Historic Resources
2801 Kensington Avenue
Richmond, Virginia 23221-2470
[log in to unmask]
P: 804.367.2323, ext. 118
F: 804.367.2391
Check out VDHR on the Internet!
www.dhr.virginia.gov
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Margaret Peters
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
Please let's desist. These are jamming my inbox.MTP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Bonis" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:50 AM
Subject: What would Jefferson think about this debate?
"Be polite to all, but intimate with few." - Thomas Jefferson.
How about the dozen or so who are driving this debate about Jefferson
into the ground move the discussion OFF the Virginia History list serve
discussion group - just send the emails to yourselves.
Let's pick a NEW topic.
How about Emancipation Day in Virginia - I know African Americans in
Richmond celebrated this day on and off for a number of years after the
Civil War -- check out this site:
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/freedom.html
Does anyone have evidence that this was celebrated in other cities in
Virginia? Why did it die out?
-- Ray B.
VCU Libraries
Herbert "the badger" Barger wrote:
> Nancy (who should let it go),
>
> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a
> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to
some
> who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks. Sorry!
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>
> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as "scum",
as I
> do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum, depending
on
> what view the particular person was pressing. I was only pointing out
[or
> trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to bring out in
people.
> And it seems to be more a reflection of the person doing the
observing,
> than what any real story is about Mr. Jefferson. But no, I do not
think
> he is "scum." I think he was basically a great man with human flaws,
who
> was fortunate to be born in a time when his talents were needed. If
he
> had been born in, say, 1932 he might have been a brilliant local
> eccentric, self-publishing little tracts with his intellectual
musings
> and buying 100 acres in Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker
> around the homestead. And that, barring concrete evidence, we should
stop
> projecting our own issues onto him.
>
> Nancy
>
> -------
> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>
> --Daniel Boone
>
>
>
> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
>
>
>> Nancy,
>>
>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The
>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie
that
>> was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom Woodson.
>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston
>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that
their
>> ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson WHEN
they
>> could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we have. They
>> even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for degrading and
painting
>> their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar approach of
TJ.
>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the
UPGRADE
>> in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion.
>>
>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens your
>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs.
>>
>> Herb Barger
>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>
>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at
>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple
>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of each
>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William
>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful
>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be
>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of
>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each
>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some sort
>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the result of
>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent
>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it
>> was.
>>
>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future
>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain
>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr.
>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used here
>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since there
>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is easy
>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that
>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A"
>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we
>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering
>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned
>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them.
>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in
>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders,
>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are passing
>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing
>> in the way of proof.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -------
>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>
>> --Daniel Boone
>>
>> ______________________________________
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>
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--
Ray Bonis
Special Collections and Archives
VCU Libraries
804-828-1108
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