Apology accepted, and ignore my next post...
Nancy
-------
The alchemy of a changing life is the only truth.
-Rumi
On May 5, 2008, at 10:43 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
> Nancy,
>
> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a
> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to
> some
> who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks. Sorry!
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>
> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as "scum",
> as I do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum,
> depending on what view the particular person was pressing. I was only
> pointing out [or trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to
> bring out in people. And it seems to be more a reflection of the
> person doing the observing, than what any real story is about Mr.
> Jefferson. But no, I do not think he is "scum." I think he was
> basically a great man with human flaws, who was fortunate to be born
> in a time when his talents were needed. If he had been born in, say,
> 1932 he might have been a brilliant local eccentric, self-publishing
> little tracts with his intellectual musings and buying 100 acres in
> Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker around the homestead. And
> that, barring concrete evidence, we should stop projecting our own
> issues onto him.
>
> Nancy
>
> -------
> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>
> --Daniel Boone
>
>
>
> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
>
>> Nancy,
>>
>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The
>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie
>> that
>> was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom Woodson.
>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston
>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that
>> their
>> ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson WHEN
>> they
>> could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we have. They
>> even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for degrading and
>> painting
>> their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar approach of
>> TJ.
>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the
>> UPGRADE
>> in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion.
>>
>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens your
>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs.
>>
>> Herb Barger
>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>
>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at
>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple
>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of each
>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William
>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful
>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be
>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of
>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each
>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some sort
>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the result of
>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent
>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it
>> was.
>>
>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future
>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain
>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr.
>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used here
>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since there
>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is easy
>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that
>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A"
>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we
>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering
>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned
>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them.
>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in
>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders,
>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are passing
>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing
>> in the way of proof.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -------
>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>
>> --Daniel Boone
>>
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