Good call. I've read/heard more than enough about this very moot
discussion. Take if off-line and allow this to be a forum for timely
discussions and a vehicle for providing assistance for scholarly
research to your colleagues.
Jeff Smith, MA, MLIS
DSS Architecture Inventory Manager
Archives
Virginia Department of Historic Resources
2801 Kensington Avenue
Richmond, Virginia 23221-2470
[log in to unmask]
P: 804.367.2323, ext. 118
F: 804.367.2391
Check out VDHR on the Internet!
www.dhr.virginia.gov
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Margaret Peters
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
Please let's desist. These are jamming my inbox.MTP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Bonis" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:50 AM
Subject: What would Jefferson think about this debate?
"Be polite to all, but intimate with few." - Thomas Jefferson.
How about the dozen or so who are driving this debate about Jefferson
into the ground move the discussion OFF the Virginia History list serve
discussion group - just send the emails to yourselves.
Let's pick a NEW topic.
How about Emancipation Day in Virginia - I know African Americans in
Richmond celebrated this day on and off for a number of years after the
Civil War -- check out this site:
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/freedom.html
Does anyone have evidence that this was celebrated in other cities in
Virginia? Why did it die out?
-- Ray B.
VCU Libraries
Herbert "the badger" Barger wrote:
> Nancy (who should let it go),
>
> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a
> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to
some
> who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks. Sorry!
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>
> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as "scum",
as I
> do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum, depending
on
> what view the particular person was pressing. I was only pointing out
[or
> trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to bring out in
people.
> And it seems to be more a reflection of the person doing the
observing,
> than what any real story is about Mr. Jefferson. But no, I do not
think
> he is "scum." I think he was basically a great man with human flaws,
who
> was fortunate to be born in a time when his talents were needed. If
he
> had been born in, say, 1932 he might have been a brilliant local
> eccentric, self-publishing little tracts with his intellectual
musings
> and buying 100 acres in Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker
> around the homestead. And that, barring concrete evidence, we should
stop
> projecting our own issues onto him.
>
> Nancy
>
> -------
> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>
> --Daniel Boone
>
>
>
> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
>
>
>> Nancy,
>>
>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The
>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie
that
>> was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom Woodson.
>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston
>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that
their
>> ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson WHEN
they
>> could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we have. They
>> even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for degrading and
painting
>> their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar approach of
TJ.
>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the
UPGRADE
>> in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion.
>>
>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens your
>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs.
>>
>> Herb Barger
>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>
>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at
>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple
>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of each
>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William
>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful
>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be
>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of
>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each
>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some sort
>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the result of
>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent
>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it
>> was.
>>
>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future
>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain
>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr.
>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used here
>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since there
>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is easy
>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that
>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A"
>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we
>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering
>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned
>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them.
>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in
>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders,
>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are passing
>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing
>> in the way of proof.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -------
>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>
>> --Daniel Boone
>>
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>
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--
Ray Bonis
Special Collections and Archives
VCU Libraries
804-828-1108
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