An alternative theory is that the only people who came here were those
who had failed so miserably where they were that they had no choice;
failure of course can mean many things; the Puritans in the 17th century
(or Russian Jews in the late 19th and early 20th) failed to have the
right religion for success; the Irish failed to grow potatoes or much
else; a number of early settlers in Va. "failed" to be the first or
second born son of someone with land, and thus could not expect much of
an inheritance; similarly, Texas was settled by people who failed to
make it in the US (Davey Crockett lots two congressional elections and
told his constituents "I am going to Texas and you can all go to hell.").
It is a push/pull issue. My sense is that the push was usually greater
than the pull.
paul
Randy Cabell wrote:
>Not a problem, Paul. After thinking about the Pilgrims, Jamestowne, westward movement, Mormons going to Utah, Germans coming to Pennsylvania, my ancestor coming from England to Goochland County in 1723, (at the risk of stirring up things again), I have concluded that the overriding drive for most people was and continues to be:
>
>"Most people are looking for a better life."
>
>The metrics of "better" involved a pot porri of safety, freedom of religion, more riches, closer family, less hectic, health, advanture, recapture of youth, power, feeling of contribution, carrying out a mission, etc.
>
>Come to think of it, "a better life" is why my family moved from hustle and bustle of McLean to the woods of Great Falls back in 1976 when our kids were growing up. And why my wife and I moved from GreatFalls to Clarke County when I retired 17 years ago. (Q:How far is Clarke County from Northern Virginia and Richmond? A: About 50 years)
>
>If my theory is on the right track, then maybe it is grist for a dissertation or two identifying a handful of reasons, and assigning %s to the reasons for each effort. e.g. Jamestowne, Pilgrims, Mormons. Wow... Discussion of those percentages would melt the internet wires on the VA-HIST as we all put our oars in the water!
>
>Since this seems to be my day of dispensing nuggets of wisdom, another good thing to keep in mind in a discussion of history is a bit of philosophy I developed some years ago after living out here for a spell. In fact, I liked it so much, that I got some clock movements that run backward, and manfactured what I call "Clarke Clocks", putting the little adage above the clock face........
>
> It never was 'like it was'
>
>The old philosopher......
>
>Randy Cabell
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Finkelman" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:21 PM
>Subject: Re: northern bias
>
>
>
>
>>Randy: I am sorry if I personalized my response; I was not intending to
>>do so, perhaps the inability to smile on the internet is something I
>>simply forgot; the "paranoia"point was meant to be humorous; clearly I
>>failed..
>>
>>Paul Finkelman
>>
>>
>>Randy Cabell wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well, I am wrong again...... I thought we were cooking along pretty well with a discussion above the personal level, but now I see that one man's search for (a more balanced version of the) truth is another man's paranoia. :((
>>>
>>>Therefore, having obviously passed the point of dimishing returns, I'll bow out of the Jamestowne/Plymouth er..... clarification of claims WhooooRah.
>>>
>>>But (as the GEICO Commercials go on) I do have some good news....... I am amassing a list (and in some cases music itself) of 17th century English music, some of which nodoubt found their way to Jamestowne, so will be glad to share whatever with anybody who develops an interest in such as we ramp up to the 2007 commemoration. I'm up to about 2 dozen at the moment, and expect some more over the next few weeks. Still trying to pin down what the Jamestowne trumpeter might have played, so stay tuned. In the meantime, if anybody wants a short MP3 excerpt of a lusty version of DOWN AMONG THE DEAD MEN by the Cabell Consort c. 2000, just send me a note. I think this was sung in an ale house or two in those parts in the 1600's.
>>>
>>>Randy Cabell
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Paul Finkelman" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:53 PM
>>>Subject: Re: northern bias
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Randy; You need to get over your paranoia about "yankee legends," and
>>>>while you are at it, read your texts more carefully; note Bradford writes:
>>>>
>>>>Last "and which was not least," they wanted to lay a foundation for or
>>>>make some progress toward "the propagating and advancing the gospel of the
>>>>kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world."
>>>>
>>>>This would imply that in fact religion was the most important reason for
>>>>the migration, as indeed it was. The Plymouth Separitists left for
>>>>Holland because they could not worship as they wanted in England, but
>>>>after beng discoruaged by life in Holland (in part there was too much
>>>>religious freedom for everyone) they returned to England where they
>>>>were just as unhappy.
>>>>
>>>>The really important question is what you, or anyone else, means by
>>>>"religious freedom." The Plymouth Separatists and moreso the Mass. Bay
>>>>Puritans were interested in eh free exercise of religion for themselves,
>>>>to set up a Godly commonwealth where they would be free from the
>>>>oppression of Anglican Church, but fo course they were not interested in
>>>>religious diversity or free exercise for other. In that respect they
>>>>were pretty much like everyone else in the world (except the Dutch).
>>>>The Va. colony did not allow any religious dissent either, and
>>>>vigorously oppressed religious dissidents. Moreover, Virginia has the
>>>>clear dishonor of jailing Baptists ministers and other dissenters as
>>>>late as the 1780s.
>>>>
>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Randy Cabell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>GRREAT!!!!! Thanks so much for digging out the four points that I
>>>>>could not
>>>>>recall.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I DID recall that the highly touted reason that the Pilgrims came
>>>>>to the
>>>>>new world -- "religious freedom" -- was not in the top three. So much
>>>>>for
>>>>>another Yankee legend :))
>>>>>
>>>>>Randy Cabell
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "J. Douglas Deal" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:31 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: northern bias
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A closer reading of Bradford shows three reasons that related, in one
>>>>>>way
>>>>>>or another, to the heavy labor and hard lives they led in Holland and a
>>>>>>fourth reason that did not. The quoted passages are on pp.23-25 of
>>>>>>his OF
>>>>>>PLYMOUTH PLANTATION (Morison's Modern Library edition).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1) The "great labour and hard fare, with other inconveniences which they
>>>>>>underwent and were contented with" in Holland could not be endured by
>>>>>>others who wanted to join them.... "But it was thought that if a better
>>>>>>and easier place of living could be had, it would draw many and take
>>>>>>away
>>>>>>these discouragements. Yea, their pastor would often say that many of
>>>>>>those who both wrote and preached now against them, if they were in a
>>>>>>place where they might have liberty and live comfortably, they would
>>>>>>then
>>>>>>practice as they did."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2) Though people bore these difficulties cheerfully and with "resolute
>>>>>>courage," "yet old age began to steal on many of them; and their
>>>>>>great and
>>>>>>continual labours, with other crosses and sorrows, hastened it before
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time," so that "within a few years more they would be in danger to
>>>>>>scatter, by necessities pressing them, or sink under their burdens or
>>>>>>both."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3) Their children, it was feared, were flirting with degeneracy and
>>>>>>corruption by following the "evil examples" around them "into
>>>>>>extravagant
>>>>>>and dangerous courses." This too was connected, in their parents' minds,
>>>>>>with hard labor: "As necessity was a taskmaster over them so they were
>>>>>>forced to be such, not only to their servants but in a sort to their
>>>>>>dearest children, the which as it did not a little wound the tender
>>>>>>hearts
>>>>>>of many a loving father and mother, so it produced likewise sundry
>>>>>>sad and
>>>>>>sorrowful effects. For many of their children that were of best
>>>>>>dispositions and gracious inclinations, having learned to beaar the yoke
>>>>>>in their youth and willing to bear part of their parents' burden, were
>>>>>>oftentimes so oppressed with their heavy labours that though their minds
>>>>>>were free and willing, yet their bodies bowed under the weight of the
>>>>>>same, and became decrepit in their early youth, the vigour of nature
>>>>>>being
>>>>>>consumed in the very bud as it were."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>4) Last "and which was not least," they wanted to lay a foundation
>>>>>>for or
>>>>>>make some progress toward "the propagating and advancing the gospel
>>>>>>of the
>>>>>>kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Douglas Deal
>>>>>>Professor of History and Chair of History Department
>>>>>>State University of New York at Oswego
>>>>>>Oswego, NY 13126
>>>>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>(315)-312-5632
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>>>instructions
>>>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
>>>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>>>3120 East 4th Place
>>>>Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
>>>>
>>>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>>>
>>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Paul Finkelman
>>Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>3120 East 4th Place
>>Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
>>
>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>
>
--
Paul Finkelman
Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
918-631-3706 (office)
918-631-2194 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
|
