I am happy to agree with Kevin that we may never agree on this.  That is
what makes life interesting.  Think how bored we would all be if we did
all agree on everything.

I do think I see his point, which is that some who fly the confed. flag
do not see themselves as racist or as supporting segregation, the KKK or
slavery; I hope he sees my point, which is that for many people that is
what the flag stands for and to fly it is to support those causes, even
if one does not think one is supporting those causes.

To put it more philosophically, the Confederate Flag surely once stood
for a nation dedicated to slavery and racial subordination.  I think
Kevin and I agree on that.

Opponents of integration and out-and-out racists (like the White
Citizens Councils and the KKK) embraced the flag as did southern state
legislatures that opposed integration.  NO  ONE (as far as I know) in
the South objected to this use of the flag; whole state governments
endorsed the flag as a symbol of segregation.  Now, I would argue, it is
far too late in the game to come along and try to persuade people that
we should accept the flag as some symbol of  "southern culture" that is
abstraced from slavery and segregation.   It may be that the flag has
been misused by racists and segregationist, but isn't it a bit late in
the day to now argue that the flag has some other meaning.

Finally, I would ask Kevin to tell us what that "other meaning" might
be?  What is the purpose of flying a flag that has for so long
symbolized oppression, slavery, racism, and worse?  Why would people
choose that flag as the symbol of their culture, unless they are, in
some deep primal way, trying to tie themselves to that culture.  It is
one thing to wave that flag at a civil war reenactment -- that is where
it belongs.  It is quite another to wave it in an integrated society
that is striving hard to create an atmosphere of equality and tolerance.

I can accept that some who fly the flag, or hang it in their bedroom or
on the car, think they are not endorsing the racism of the past.  What
then are they endorsing? And, what do they think others will think when
they see the flag that has been traditionally associated with so much
pain and racial violence?

Paul Finkelman

[log in to unmask] wrote:

>I still do not seem to be successful at conveying my
>thoughts clearly.
>
>I will respond to Paul's posting point by point.  He and I
>may ultimately disagree--its hard to tell at this point.
>But hopefully we can pin down more accurately our points of
>disagreement.  And hopefully too, there is some value to
>those of you from the list who are reading this :)
>
>
>
>>Kevin seems to be arguing that those who fly the
>>
>>
>confederate flag do so
>
>
>>for essentially non-political, non-racist reason. THis is
>>
>>
>true, he
>
>
>>argues, even if the motivation for adding the flag was
>>
>>
>racist and
>
>
>>segregationist.
>>
>>
>
>I think all public history is political, in the sense that
>it conveys a statement about what kind of place public
>society should be.  So I would not agree with the statement
>above.
>
>Moreover, I think I have been consistent in framing my
>observations tentatively, rather than in absolute terms.  I
>have left open the possibility that the Confederate flag is
>today a racist symbol, intended as such by the heritage
>groups which promote it.  But too, I have been insisting
>that we leave open the possibility that they do not intend
>to convey a racist statement.  That possibility seems to me
>to be, well, possible, indeed, on the basis of anecdotal
>evidence, likely.
>
>So a fairer statement of my position would be "Kevin seems
>to be arguing that those who fly the confederate flag do
>so for essentially political, but possibly non-racist
>reasons."
>
>I have suggested that if we want to know why some people
>display the Confederate flag, we should look at what they
>actually have to say about it.  Otherwise, we risk creating
>straw men--we risk ascribing to those who fly the flag
>motives that they may not in fact possess.
>
>
>
>>This however, does not mean that there is no political
>>
>>
>content to the
>
>
>>flag; it only means that the person using the flag does not
>>
>>
>know or
>
>
>>understand the content.  Someone viewing the flag, however,
>>
>>
>may still
>
>
>>see that content.
>>
>>
>
>Of course.  But even more importantly, the symbol may--
>indeed, I will go further and say, surely does--mean
>different things to different people.  The US Flag, for
>example, clearly means very different things to different
>people, as the argument over whether or not it is sacred
>makes clear (you cannot desecrate the flag, for example by
>burning it, if you do not think it is sacred in the first
>place).  This is true of most potent symbols.  Their meaning
>is not absolute and fixed--it changes depending on the
>larger context.
>
>
>
>>Now, the issues here is not this stark.  Surely the modern
>>
>>
>person who
>
>
>>flys the confederate flag, or puts it on his truck, knows
>>
>>
>some of its
>
>
>>history, knows something of slavery, racism, the KKK, and
>>
>>
>all that has
>
>
>>historically been tied to the flag.  This modern flag
>>
>>
>flyer, at one
>
>
>>level, implicitly endorses this history, even if he says,
>>
>>
>no I don't.
>
>I don't think this is necessarily true.  Some people who
>display the Confederate flag endorse a different meaning for
>it because they adhere to a different history.  If you
>believe that the Confederate flag derives its meaning from
>the Confederacy and not from the 1950s (which the people I
>have talked to personally seem to believe) and that
>secession was not about slavery (as they also seem to
>believe), and that the soldiers who fought for the CSA were
>not fighting for slavery (which they also seem to believe)
>then it is entirely possible to construct a non-racist
>meaning for the flag.  Its not a meaning based on an
>especially accurate understanding of history.  Ironically,
>in the eyes of people who espouse these beliefs, the people
>who waved the flag in the 1950s in support of massive
>resistance are the ones who got the history wrong.  *They*
>are the ones who abused the symbol.  There is nothing
>inconsistent in this view of the flag, provided you buy into
>the underlying assumptions.  And at least in the Shenandoah
>Valley of Virginia, *lots* of people buy into those
>assumptions.
>
>Paul, you seem to be endorsing a fixed and absolute
>understanding of the function of symbols.  The "meaning" of
>the Confederate flag was fixed in the 1950s, and cannot (or
>perhaps "has not" would be better) change, is how I read
>your argument.  Moreover, you seem to be insisting that
>those people who read the flag as a symbol of massive
>resistance are the only ones with a legitimate understanding
>of it.
>
>I just don't think political symbols work this way.  I think
>they are impinged upon by historical forces.  Cultural
>symbols are not fixed because the culture changes; political
>symbols are not fixed because politics change too.  If the
>flag is indeed a cultural and political symbol, and if the
>cultural and political context has in fact changed, then the
>meaning of the symbol is different.  Exactly what that
>meaning is, to the various groups for whom it is meaningful
>and potent, seems to me to be an open question, waiting for
>an empirically based answer.
>
>
>
>>Kevin writes:   "Thus, it seems to me a safe bet to presume
>>
>>
>that the
>
>
>>meaning of the Confederate flag today is something other
>>
>>
>than what it
>
>
>>was 50 years ago."  I would urge him to ask his African
>>
>>
>Americn students
>
>
>>if they think this is true.
>>
>>
>
>I've already done this.  The conversation was enlightening
>to all involved, and confirmed my view that there is a huge
>divergence over the meaning of this symbol.
>
>Warm regards,
>Kevin
>
>Kevin R. Hardwick, Ph.D.
>Department of History
>James Madison University
>
>

--
Paul Finkelman
Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
University of Tulsa College of Law
3120 East 4th Place
Tulsa, OK   74104-3189

918-631-3706 (office)
918-631-2194 (fax)

[log in to unmask]



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