Ms. Zolkover: the wording I quoted was taken from the article cited
by Lyle Browning, as you can see from his message below.
I am not "considering as historians liars who write that Jefferson is
the father of one or more or all of Sally Heming's [sic] children."
It was the article's reporter, again, who referred to "historians."
There are, however, many such historians, most of whose work I know
well and a number of whom I know personally. They are not liars.
They do, however, disagree with you. I am myself one such historian.
You do your argument great harm by flinging about such inflammatory
and inaccurate accusations with such abandoned profligacy. Because
you are new to this list, you may be unaware that it is traditionally
characterized by courtesy, even in disagreement. I realize that you
are most likely taking your cue on this point from the perpetually
choleric Mr. Barger, but his language is happily uncharacteristic of
this list.
It would be a personal courtesy to me if you would in the future
refrain from characterizing me, and those professional colleagues of
mine with whom you disagree, as liars. Perhaps you could content
yourself with describing us instead as merely delusional? I would be
happy to return the favor. Thanks.
-- Jurretta Heckscher
On Oct 22, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Adrian Zolkover wrote:
> REPLY TO JURRETTA HECKSCHER VA-HIST. 10/22/08
>
>
>
> "'Historians'" [???] say that such evidence points [I
> note you use the word points] to Jefferson as the father." I think
> you are most likely considering as historians liars who write that
> Jefferson is the father of one or more or all of Sally Heming's
> children "acclaimed" FICTIONAL NOVELS WHICH THESE AUTHORS PEDDLE AS
> HISTORY, who ignore much recorded evidence which would lead one to
> believe (and conclude) the opposite of their novels' musings. I
> don't put Hitler on a pedestal, but I do put him in the bin with the
> worst human beings who have ever existed. I guess weak, dirty minded
> people can't recognize qualities of character and are unable to
> differentiate between worthy character traits and unworthy ones.
> That's not correct. Let's back up a minute - can't recognize worthy
> character traits as to their significance in an equation, behavior
> which one must value in order to predict other behavioral patterns,
> and to estimate an unknown factor . These are the folks it doesn't
> pay to bother to help, because they will turn around and spit in
> your face because they don't like the way you blink. And I don't
> consider the aforementioned liars as historians. I apologize for my
> lack of knowledge on the subject of slaves' lives in the early
> United States. I think such a study is a worthwhile pursuit, and a
> most interesting pursuit, even just as a look at human behavior -
> how bad human beings can be.
>
> For example, Annette Gordon-Reed in THE HEMINGSES OF
> MONTICELLO ignores historical evidence and takes unforgivable
> liberties weaving tales about Thomas Jefferson. See JEFFERSON
> VINDICATED by Cynthia Burton & THE JEFFERSON-HEMINGS MYTH published
> by The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society. These are 2 books full of
> information that refutes Reed's pronouncements. For beginning
> starters: Thomas Jefferson's wife died 13 years before Sally Hemings
> had her first child. His 13 years younger brother Randolph lived 20
> miles away & often visited Monticello & socialized with slaves.
> Thomas Jefferson stated at times Randolph was incompetent to manage
> his affairs and others stated sometimes Randolph lacked
> intelligence. Sally began having babies around the time Randolph was
> widowed & stopped having babies about the time Randolph remarried; &
> Randolph had 4 sons who were of child bearing age when Sally became
> pregnant. Only 1 of Sally's children was DNA tested. T. Jefferson's
> daughter, husband who managed Monticello & 12 children moved to
> Monticello whenever T. Jefferson was there. The son-in-law states
> his room was so close to T. Jefferson's that he could see and hear
> when anyone entered & left. Slaves were prohibited from being in his
> quarters when he was present. As to Sally Hemings being T.
> Jefferson's wife's half sister, read ANATOMY OF A SCANDAL - T.
> JEFFERSON & THE SALLY STORY that concludes from extensive evidence
> that Martha Wayles Jefferson's father was not Sally's father. Gordon-
> Reed deliberately denigrates the person who in his day in ways,
> particularly written, did more than anyone else to end slavery &
> establish democracy in the United States.
>
>
>
> Adrian Zolkover
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jurretta Heckscher" <[log in to unmask]
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] New Presidential Descendant Claimant
>
>
>> Mr. Browning (or is it Dr. Browning? sorry!), I'm truly confused
>> by your comment here.
>>
>> You quote the reporter as saying the following:
>>
>> 1. Genetic evidence has linked Hemings's line to Jefferson's family.
>> 2. Documentary evidence exists.
>> 3. Historians say that such evidence points to Jefferson as the
>> father.
>> 4. There are still some who deny the link.
>>
>> Which of these statements do you contest? It seems to me that
>> every one of them can be substantiated abundantly in postings on
>> this list, from advocates on all sides of the question at hand,
>> within the past month. Some of the historians in question have
>> even participated in that discussion, or have recently published
>> books to the same effect.
>>
>> If one wishes to continue to debate Jefferson and Hemings, surely
>> one can come up with something more salient than a bald factual
>> statement from a reporter -- a welcome exception, moreover, to the
>> general tendency of reporters to misreport complicated historical
>> issues.
>>
>> I say this, for what it's worth, as someone who finds this
>> individual's claim of Madison descent dubious in the extreme. (I
>> cannot find the Times-Dispatch article, but am familiar with the
>> claim as recorded in other recent news reports.) The (apparent)
>> entire absence of supporting contemporary evidence -- i.e.,
>> evidence from Madison's own time -- renders it most likely to be,
>> in my view, what several people on this list would have us suppose
>> the Hemings- Jefferson link to be: a historically baseless family
>> story founded in misdirected ancestral pride.
>>
>> The same goes for the story about a supposed George Washington
>> slave liaison that Henry Wiencek has perhaps too dutifully (sorry,
>> Henry) laid forth in An Imperfect God: the contemporaneous, or
>> even more recent historical, supporting evidence that might lead a
>> reasonable researcher to accept the tale's essential veracity
>> simply does not exist.
>>
>> The Jefferson-Hemings link is of an entirely different order, and
>> it is frankly an insult to the professional integrity of
>> historians to pretend otherwise.
>>
>> Sorry to be peevish. My peeve is not directed at you, Mr.
>> Browning, but my puzzlement is.
>>
>> -- Jurretta Heckscher
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Lyle E. Browning wrote:
>>
>>> Today's Richmond Times Dispatch had an article about a
>>> Massachusetts pediatrician who claims via oral history to be
>>> descended from James Madison's father and from James Madison.
>>> Difficulties in getting genetic testing done and by whom, etc.
>>> are preventing forward motion at the moment.
>>>
>>> The Washington Post's Jonathan Mummolo wrote the article and in
>>> it was a paragraph: "Despite genetic evidence that has linked
>>> Hemmings' line to Jefferson's family, and documentary evidence
>>> that historians say points to Jefferson as the father, there are
>>> still some who deny the link."
>>>
>>> The first part about linking SH's line to Jefferson's family is
>>> true via DNA. The second part about documentary evidence is
>>> highly contested and cannot be ascertained with certainty. The
>>> third part goes completely off the rails by tarring those who
>>> might deny that TJ was the father.
>>>
>>> Of such things is disinformation promulgated. The first step is
>>> to make a statement that is true. Then you warp it one degree as
>>> the second part did, and then the third part is introduced as the
>>> new "truth" and we're off to the Goebbels finals with a flourish.
>>>
>>> Let the fireworks begin.
>>>
>>> Lyle Browning
>>> ______________________________________
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>>
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