ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a
cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to a
viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have NEVER
referred to the published works of the various authors as pop-
psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been marshaled
for both sides of the issue and will not settle the matter. What
appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist without
examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a rush to
judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with examples of the
same apparent conduct by the planter class does not get farther along
the line of proving that the one person did so. That's tarring the
group with the brush, as in all Germans were Nazis.
This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
Lyle Browning, RPA
On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
> Lyle,
>
> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them.
>
> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly not
> pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's contemporaries
> as much as the word of oral histories.
>
> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the
> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the
> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
>
> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the State,
> they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered at, when
> Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
>
> and the same author, said, a few years later:
>
> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a substitute
> for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In Virginia, this
> damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and probably more, as
> Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its defense."
>
> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs.
> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried on
> even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact by the
> exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the intervention of
> mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall, to reclaim his honor.
>
> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many years,
> this is the first I have seen such details as establish that no only
> did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for immoral purposes, but
> that he also lied to his daughter about why relations with the
> Walkers had cooled on the family's return from France during which
> time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable telling her husband why
> she objected to Jefferson as executor of her husband's will for the
> moral danger it would place her under in the event the he met an
> early demise.
>
> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
>
> What goes around comes around.
>
> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this
> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find
> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will
> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in recent
> days, to the lie.
>
> Anne
>
>
>
> Anne Pemberton
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
> Barger's opinion
>
>
>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting your
>>> ability to approach this issue logically.
>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that
>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11 opinions
>> as to what something means. All the argument in the world is not
>> going to solve the case as it is now.
>>
>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA
>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one
>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas,
>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who
>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up
>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may.
>>
>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man
>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point
>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes
>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose another
>> grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and then wait
>> until the next bit comes along. That's how science works. It's
>> evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by posturing in one
>> direction or another.
>>
>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH,
>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to let
>>> in a little sunshine and logic.
>> May you live by those words as well.
>>
>>
>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>
>>
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