Stephan,
You have a gentle way of persuasion. What you say, as you suggest, is not
new to me, although, as retirement permits me more time for historical
readings, I am still a student, and excited about the opportunity to take
huge gulps of the heady wine of knowledge.
As you no doubt surmised from my posts today, I am dismayed at some of
Jefferson's behavior to specific women and to women in general. There is an
old joke that southern women as maintained "barefoot and pregnant" by their
husbands, and one of the accounts in Kukla's appendices provides fuel for a
fire that Jefferson was one who practiced that tradition. Undoubtedly, it
led to her early death and his dismay at losing a lifemate. But, the
knowledge that constant pregnancy not only results in the early "wearing
out" of the woman, but often in the decline of the resulting children is
part of modern science, and perhaps it is my/our generation who, emerging
from large families that were still desirable in the mid 20-th century,
women at last rebelled from the wasting of theirr lives and intellect in
constant child-bearing. Smaller families have allowed women to excel in
other fields including those of intellectual pursuits, and the predominance
of males in our colleges has given way to a predominance of females who are
pursuing more than the feminine arts and wiles and have thereby made
themselves more independent of their fathers and husbands for their support
as well as their satisfaction from meaningful careers.
For some reason, I spent much of my life under the delusion that Jefferson,
Washington and others of our Founding Fathers were a cut above the rest of
humanity. It is a bit discomfitting at this time of life, to be discovering
the clay feet that held them all to the ground. I'm sure I will "get over
it" and again find the areas in which to continue my admiration for the
gifts these men possessed. But, I think I can be less critical of modern
figures for whom it is much easier for us to discern the clay in the pretty
boots that we have to struggle so much more to ferret out of the historical
record.
It is on days like this that I wish the stories I write about a magical
history hat that instantly transports one back in time and wherever in
place, to meet with these people and -- today at least --- give them a
spirited piece of my mind!
Anne
Anne Pemberton
[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/apembert
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan A. Schwartz" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
Barger's opinion
> Anne --
>
> All of these men are notable for having strong libidos. They had a lot of
> life force, what the Taoist would call Chi, and they were capable of
> intense relationships with strong women. It almost drove Mason and
> Jefferson insane, when their wives died. Contemporary accounts, and their
> own words tell us that. These were not just marriages, they were life
> partnerships, which is quite another thing. Madison and Adams both had
> wives whom history remembers as distinct individuals. I know none of
> these facts are new to you, I just suggest a way of looking at them.
>
> There is an exquisiteness to Jefferson that is wholly absent in Franklin.
> Different backgrounds of course, different colonies, that sort of thing.
> But also in their physicality. Jefferson was lean. And I certainly never
> think of him as physically powerful. I thought they caught his physical
> appearance and style fairly well, in the recent HBO Adams series.
> Franklin was a swimmer and a wrestler, with a big chest, and impressively
> muscled arms. Other than Washington, he is the only person, within the
> major figure group, I can think of whom contemporaries describe as
> powerful. Franklin had very little interest in personal or dwelling
> aesthetics, although he knew how to use appearance to effect. Jefferson
> was much more stylish. But they both shared the many common interests we
> all know and, physically both were fastidious about their personal
> hygiene and linen, which people often don't think about. This common
> characteristic would have stood out in an age when body odors hung like a
> smog around any gathering, however exalted. A theater experience must
> have been nearly overwhelming; the only modern equivalent I can think of
> is a down-at-heels boxing gym.
>
> I think it is crazy to judge these people in the 18th century by 21st
> century standards. Just as they knew nothing of television, so they knew
> nothing of the racial and gender attitudes that prevail today. We are
> getting better. I say this to people all the time. Women didn't have the
> right to vote in this country until 90 years ago. Only in my lifetime
> have we exited racial water fountains. The Lovings were chased from the
> Commonwealth. Today the majority of social icons, are African American,
> and many are in mixed marriages. I think one is about to become the First
> Couple, and he the President. We get better. It is important to remember
> that, when we get depressed from how far we can still go. With the
> exception of Franklin, the Founders are all men of their time and place.
> Part of what makes them interesting is not that they were mostly in
> context, but that occasionally, and once for an extended period, a part
> of them stepped out of that, and created the legal and governmental
> vessel in which America exists.
>
> -- Stephan
>
>
>
> He was a great charmer, but never trivial.
> On 8 May 2008, at 21:21, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>
>> Stephan,
>>
>> Considerin Jon Kukla's book in whole, it would seem that Jefferson
>> encountered the word "no" in most of his attempts at intimacy beginning
>> with Rebecca Burwell. Mrs. Walker said no .... repeatedly. And if, as
>> you suggest, there were more ladies in Paris that he tried to schmooze,
>> he heard "no" from all women he approached other than his wife and
>> Sally. I would suspect that the boils and eczema were possibly due to
>> unclean water in Paris. He would have been used to much cleaner water at
>> Monticello even if the water in the large cities was starting to get
>> rank by then.
>>
>> I've read many books on Jefferson over the years - adding to my
>> collection whenever I had occasion to be in Charlottesville was always a
>> treat. But this book by Jon Kukla is a real eye-opener ... even more so
>> than Fawn Brodie's book (I have never read Gordan- Reed's book). At least
>> after reading Fawn Brodie, I got a sense of romance on the part of
>> Jefferson, but after reading the details on the Walker situation, I am
>> ready to dump the whole of Jefferson into the category of lecherous men
>> who are an impediment to the intellectual freedom and advancement, as
>> well as to the virtue, of all women they meet. And Jefferson had the
>> audacity to complain about the "virtue" of European Women?
>> Shameful!
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> Anne Pemberton
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephan A. Schwartz"
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
>> Barger's opinion
>>
>>
>>> I doubt it, Anne, it would have worked against his goal of creating
>>> what he called Virtuous Citizens.
>>>
>>> By the by, almost all, indeed, very possibly all, of his known
>>> dalliances were literary romances, i.e., he flirted and wrote mildly
>>> suggestive flirtatious letters, but there is little real evidence they
>>> were consummated. His known loves in Paris, for instance, were never
>>> physical, not only because of his great age and ill-health (he was
>>> covered with boils and eczema for much of his time there), but because
>>> the ladies said, "No."
>>>
>>> -- Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 May 2008, at 19:32, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Melinda,
>>>>
>>>> I tend to agree with you that Franklin would enjoy having his
>>>> daliances given air whereas Jefferson had more reason to be ashamed
>>>> of his behavior.
>>>>
>>>> Anne
>>>>
>>>> Anne Pemberton
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melinda Skinner"
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:17 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
>>>> Barger's opinion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The disappointing difference, I propose, is that Franklin would
>>>>> probably enjoy having his dalliances and social adventures
>>>>> discussed; while Jefferson would be humiliated. It's just not as
>>>>> much fun.
>>>>> -Melinda
>>>>> --
>>>>> Melinda C. P. Skinner
>>>>> Richmond, VA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>>>>> From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the
>>>>>> scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a
>>>>>> fallen "great".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were
>>>>>> said to be "grateful".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Lyle,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then,
>>>>>> likely,
>>>>>> > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the
>>>>>> evidence
>>>>>> > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced
>>>>>> > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to
>>>>>> paint
>>>>>> > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to
>>>>>> defend
>>>>>> > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson
>>>>>> continued to
>>>>>> > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as
>>>>>> illustrated
>>>>>> > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in
>>>>>> her own
>>>>>> > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the
>>>>>> situation
>>>>>> > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet
>>>>>> as far
>>>>>> > as the integrity issue is concerned.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his
>>>>>> > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as
>>>>>> > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> > made clear -at the birth of a new nation.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his
>>>>>> > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for
>>>>>> > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican
>>>>>> form of
>>>>>> > government.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Anne
>>>>>> > Anne Pemberton
>>>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> > http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>>>> > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web
>>>>>> page in
>>>>>> > Barger's opinion
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in
>>>>>> fact a
>>>>>> >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent
>>>>>> predisposition to
>>>>>> >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have
>>>>>> >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various
>>>>>> authors as
>>>>>> >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the
>>>>>> >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a
>>>>>> diarist
>>>>>> >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at
>>>>>> best a
>>>>>> >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with
>>>>>> >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans
>>>>>> >> were Nazis.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> Lyle,
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's
>>>>>> >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
>>>>>> >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
>>>>>> >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the
>>>>>> >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be
>>>>>> wondered
>>>>>> >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a
>>>>>> >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In
>>>>>> >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as
>>>>>> anywhere and
>>>>>> >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> >>> defense."
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
>>>>>> >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of
>>>>>> Mrs.
>>>>>> >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was
>>>>>> carried
>>>>>> >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>> >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the
>>>>>> >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John
>>>>>> Marshall,
>>>>>> >>> to reclaim his honor.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many
>>>>>> >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as
>>>>>> establish
>>>>>> >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for
>>>>>> >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter
>>>>>> about why
>>>>>> >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt
>>>>>> comfortable
>>>>>> >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as
>>>>>> executor of
>>>>>> >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> >>> in the event the he met an early demise.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
>>>>>> >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
>>>>>> >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> What goes around comes around.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in
>>>>>> >>> recent days, to the lie.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Anne
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Anne Pemberton
>>>>>> >>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>>>> >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >>>
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web
>>>>>> page
>>>>>> >>> in Barger's opinion
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
>>>>>> >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting
>>>>>> >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically.
>>>>>> >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11
>>>>>> >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the
>>>>>> >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then
>>>>>> DNA
>>>>>> >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
>>>>>> >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us
>>>>>> not one
>>>>>> >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But,
>>>>>> alas,
>>>>>> >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever
>>>>>> people who
>>>>>> >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd
>>>>>> dig up
>>>>>> >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they
>>>>>> may.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big
>>>>>> man
>>>>>> >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence
>>>>>> comes
>>>>>> >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose
>>>>>> >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to
>>>>>> exhaustion and
>>>>>> >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science
>>>>>> >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by
>>>>>> >>>> posturing in one direction or another.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with
>>>>>> SH,
>>>>>> >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the
>>>>>> alleles.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to
>>>>>> >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic.
>>>>>> >>>> May you live by those words as well.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> ______________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
>>>>>> >>>> instructions at
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>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ______________________________________
>>>>>> >>> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
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>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ______________________________________
>>>>>> >> To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ______________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
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