The disappointing difference, I propose, is that Franklin would probably enjoy having his dalliances and social adventures discussed; while Jefferson would be humiliated. It's just not as much fun.
-Melinda
--
Melinda C. P. Skinner
Richmond, VA
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]>
> Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the
> scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that.
>
> Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a
> fallen "great".
>
> Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were
> said to be "grateful".
>
> Lyle Browning, RPA
>
>
> On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>
> > Lyle,
> >
> > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I have
> > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then, likely,
> > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the evidence
> > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced
> > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint
> > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend
> > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson continued to
> > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as illustrated
> > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own
> > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby.
> >
> > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation
> > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far
> > as the integrity issue is concerned.
> >
> > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and the
> > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his
> > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as
> > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been
> > made clear -at the birth of a new nation.
> >
> > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his
> > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for
> > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican form of
> > government.
> >
> > Anne
> > Anne Pemberton
> > [log in to unmask]
> > http://www.erols.com/apembert
> > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
> > >
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
> > Barger's opinion
> >
> >
> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a
> >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to
> >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have
> >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as
> >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been
> >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the
> >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a diarist
> >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at best a
> >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with
> >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does
> >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person did
> >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans
> >> were Nazis.
> >>
> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
> >>
> >> Lyle Browning, RPA
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lyle,
> >>>
> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test them.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly
> >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's
> >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories.
> >>>
> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where the
> >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to the
> >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
> >>>
> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
> >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
> >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the
> >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be wondered
> >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
> >>>
> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later:
> >>>
> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a
> >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In
> >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as anywhere and
> >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for its
> >>> defense."
> >>>
> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
> >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs.
> >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried
> >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact
> >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the
> >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John Marshall,
> >>> to reclaim his honor.
> >>>
> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many
> >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish
> >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for
> >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter about why
> >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return from
> >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable
> >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as executor of
> >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her under
> >>> in the event the he met an early demise.
> >>>
> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
> >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
> >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
> >>>
> >>> What goes around comes around.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this
> >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I find
> >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book will
> >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in
> >>> recent days, to the lie.
> >>>
> >>> Anne
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Anne Pemberton
> >>> [log in to unmask]
> >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]
> >>> >
> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page
> >>> in Barger's opinion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
> >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting
> >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically.
> >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that
> >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11
> >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the
> >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now.
> >>>>
> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA
> >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
> >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one
> >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But, alas,
> >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who
> >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up
> >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man
> >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point
> >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence comes
> >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose
> >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and
> >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science
> >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by
> >>>> posturing in one direction or another.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH,
> >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the alleles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to
> >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic.
> >>>> May you live by those words as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________
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> >>>
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