To quote your message sent 9/26/08 9:36 pm
        "As to 'pimping' I am using it with a sense of humor. I am striving 
to put in perspective those rather silly remarks that assert the stating of 
a fact which is                 circumstantially likely, but neither proving 
and nor disproving ... is 'lying'".
Words, facts, do mean something, or they are meant to. If I say I saw John 
Doe rape the next door neighbor's 10 year old daughter because I saw him 
bending over her, when actually what he was doing was lifting her up after 
she had fallen down a pit in the front yard; according to you this statement 
as fact would be funny. No person is perfect, and life isn't perfect. But I 
don't appreciate your and some established authors and professors lies, 
stating things as facts that are only exercises of their imaginations - 
particularly when it comes to Thomas Jefferson, who beginning with his draft 
of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, did the most of any person in his 
time, to establish the idea that slavery is abhorrent, and to establish the 
innate importance of every individual life. I think you are barking down the 
wrong tree. I wish you and your other money making professors and authors 
would get off their lying sticks and stop deliberately defiling history. And 
I think it is a disgusting state of affairs to have to make this wish - and 
this goes to the very heart of the phony information mill about Thomas 
Jefferson that this web site discusses.

(Miss) Adrian Zolkover

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anne Pemberton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 9:36 PM9Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] ANSWERS - 
Annette Gordon-Reed


> Neil,
>
> Whoever else in the political spectrum may be happy or unhappy to have 
> Jefferson's paternity of Sally's children established as fact is not of 
> any real concern to most of those who are a part of this discussion on 
> this list. To insert politics is to launch a sucker punch to the 
> discussion.
>
> I did not quote Jon Kukla with book in hand, but from memory reading it in 
> recent months. Whether or not in the many small print pages at the end of 
> the book which I typically do not read, he specified exactly in what 
> condition the materials were, I cannot say. He did say that it was written 
> when Tom was a teenager and trying to come to grips with a value system 
> for meeting his personal needs.
>
> Had Tom written on the same subject later in life, we could perhaps 
> discern if he changed his opinion over the years, but he did not favor us 
> with such a discourse. We can, of course, conjecture from his actions, 
> beginning with an advance to a single girl who rejected his proposal, and 
> then followed by many years of courting married women, including his wife. 
> Compare what he did to his plans at age 15. (Easier if you read Kukla).
>
> As to "pimping" I am using it with a sense of humor. I am striving to put 
> in perspective those rather silly remarks that assert the stating of a 
> fact which  is circumstantially likely, but neither proven, and nor 
> disproven .... is "lying".
>
> If such authors as Kukla, who clearly distinguish the established facts 
> from the circumstantially likely facts, are publishing "lies", then, it is 
> equally true  that TJ must have been pimping his maid for whatever price 
> or favors he could earn.
>
> I do seriously doubt that anyone who feels that TJ fathered children by 
> his maid is engaging in an attempt to enlarge the size of government any 
> more than has been done in recent years with the current administration. 
> If you are going to talk history, talk history. Don't try to assign 
> political labels to differences in interpreting historical facts. And, do 
> not forget that, as president, Tom Jefferson unilaterally decided to 
> double the size of the country without prior consent of congress. If you 
> want to learn more about that incident, go to: 
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/books/Louisiana.html  it will put you 
> right into the event!
>
> Anne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anne Pemberton
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
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