I appreciate Professor Finkelman's response. We are definitely in agreement
regarding "mythic marble statue" people. We need to view people like
Jefferson in context, otherwise he becomes what I'm going to call an
"historical figurine" People are never consistent in all things. People
can be ahead of their time in someways and retrograde in others. UVA
created a Cult of Jefferson and it worked well for a time, frankly, a
rather long time. Now, it isn't working as well. Must UVA abandon "Mr.
Jefferson" wholesale? It is an excellent opportunity for some bright people
to tackle a very difficult problem or set of problems around history
becoming hagiography and what to do in the aftermath.Is there a better
example than Jefferson, other than Lincoln?
I think your last graph makes clear some of the difficulties of moving
beyond the figurine. Perhaps we should simply abandon the concept of role
models completely. In any case, I think college students can and will find
their own people to admire and aspire to emulate. That is their work, if
they choose to do it at all. I don't know if I have ever had one that
wasn't fictional. Then again, role models whether based in fact or drawn
from history are essentially fictional as we have discovered with
Jefferson, Bill Cosby, and other celebrities too numerous to mention.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Paul Finkelman <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I was not making an attack on Foner, but only pointing out the irony of
> conservatives using a Marxist to defend Jefferson. I am sure the
> conservative publication that Turner let us to does not normally use
> communists to support their position. I found the use in this case quite
> ironic.
>
> But the larger point is that the source Turner took us to pulling a
> "factoid" of Jefferson's life out of context and then totally misled us
> into thinking that support for allowing private manumission was the same as
> supporting abolition. I have a much longer discussion of this issue in the
> relatively new 3rd edition of *Slavery and the Founders: Race and
> Liberty in the Age of Jefferson* (New York: Routledge, 2014).
>
> I "think" however, and Ms. Hines and I are on the same page in believing
> that to understand history we need to understand people in the world they
> lived in and not turn them into mythic marble creatures, as Mr. Turner does
> with Jefferson.
>
> One of the problems with Jefferson is that his hypocrisy was so clear. He
> could talk about all of us being equal while he was busy selling human
> beings to pay for his life style. He could talk about "liberty" while
> creating policies to suppress the "back republic in Haiti, because it was
> governed by former slaves. He could claim to be a scientist, and then
> publish nonsense in Notes on the State of Virginia about the inferiority of
> blacks, even as he depended on them every day of his life.
>
> When Lord Cornwallis invaded Virginia he bitterly complained that the
> British took his slaves from him, and had the audacity to free them and
> even let them fight for *their liberty *by serving in the British army.
> But, Governor Jefferson adamantly refused to enlist Virginia's slaves to
> fight for the freedom of all Americans. In that respect he differed
> dramatically and sharply from the greater and more important Virginia of
> the period, George Washington, who in fact happily accepted black
> soldiers. In death the two men differed as well. Washington provided
> freedom *and land* for all his slaves. Jefferson emancipated a few of
> his Hemings relatives and left the other so be sold at auction to cover his
> debts for the wine, clothing, books, art, and other things he was always
> buying.
>
> Perhaps the issue for UVA is not whether Jefferson should have be quoted
> because was a slaveholder, or because he invented scientific racism in the
> * Notes*, but rather because he is such a terrible role model to young
> students, always spending above his means, lying to people about what he
> was doing and then leaving the next generation to suffer because throughout
> his life he was so profligate and improvident. This is not a great role
> model for college students.
>
>
> ******************
> Paul Finkelman
> *Ariel F. Sallows Visiting Professor of Human Rights Law*
> *College of Law*
> *University of Saskatchewan*
> *15 Campus Drive*
> *Saskatoon, SK S7N 5A6 *
> *CANADA*
>
> *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>c) 518.605.0296
> <518.605.0296> *(US number)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Susan Hines <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* Paul Finkelman <[log in to unmask]>
> *Cc:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Monday, November 28, 2016 4:52 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [VA-HIST] Censoring Jefferson
>
> I thought the original posting made interesting and relevant points about
> how historians, and ordinary folks, deal with the "imperfections" of
> historical figures, given that men such as Jefferson are necessarily
> products of their time and place. I assume Mr. Finkleman is referencing
> Philip Foner's Marxist leanings and membership in the CPUSA in a negative
> way, as an ad hominem attack against both Foner and Turner. This is not
> fruitful. It is disheartening,too, given today's uncertain political
> environment. When these arguments are made using people who were
> blacklisted for their political beliefs in the early 1940s, it is not only
> illogical but also demonstrates an ahistorical understanding of Foner,
> himself, who could be criticized for a variety of other things, including
> rather extensive plagiarism. He is unremarkable in having been a member of
> CPUSA in New York City in the 1930s.
>
> The most important question, which I'm sure many scholars have addressed,
> is our need for mythic forebearers in the first place. When will we finally
> be able to drop unrealistic expectations, admire people for what wisdom
> they had to offer and accept, but not endorse, the angels of their lesser
> (and more ordinary) natures?
>
> Susan Hines, MA, US History, American University, 1991
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Paul Finkelman <000000151e9ae429-dmarc-
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> It is charming to see Mr. Dixon using a source quoting a well-known
> American Marxist (and I think member of the CPUSA) to bolster Jefferson:
> "Philip Foner, editor of “The Complete Writings of Thomas Paine,” noted
> that the characterization of Paine as “the first American abolitionist” was
> inaccurate, due to Jefferson’s 1769 effort to legalize the manumission of
> Virginia slaves." It is important to note that the law mentioned here would
> have merely allowed masters to free slaves through private manumission, if
> the masters chose to do so. It was not an emancipation law and would not
> have ended slavery. Many masters liked such law because it allowed them to
> free favored slavers, often the mistresses or the children the fathered
> with the slaves. In 1782 Virginia passed such a law, and except for a
> handful of members of the Hemings family, Jefferson never took advantage of
> the law to free any of his slaves.
> Support for such a law was hardly support for "abolition." Many masters
> in the South (including Jefferson) freed a few slaves here and there but
> continued to buy and sell human beings throughout their lives. Jefferson
> fits very well in this category.
> ******************
> Paul FinkelmanArielF. Sallows Visiting Professor of Human Rights
> LawCollegeof LawUniversityof Saskatchewan15Campus DriveSaskatoon,SK S7N
> 5A6 [log in to unmask]
> c) 518.605.0296 (US number)
>
>
> From: Richard Dixon <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 11:44 AM
> Subject: [VA-HIST] Censoring Jefferson
>
> For those interested in the recent flap at the University of Virginia
> where professors and students objected to President Teresa Sullivan
> quoting Thomas Jefferson, the founder of the University. There is a
> response from Robert Turner, a UVA professor, which appears in the
> November 27 Charlottesville Daily Progress.
>
> http://www.dailyprogress.com/ opinion/opinion-commentary-
> censoring-jefferson-to- safeguard-ignorance-president-
> s-legacy/article_1756205c- b4a1-11e6-9510-9ffce9935918.
> html?utm_medium=social&utm_ source=email&utm_campaign= user-share
> <http://www.dailyprogress.com/opinion/opinion-commentary-censoring-jefferson-to-safeguard-ignorance-president-s-legacy/article_1756205c-b4a1-11e6-9510-9ffce9935918.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=user-share>
>
>
> --
> Richard E. Dixon 12106 Beaver Creek Road Clifton, VA 20124 The Virginia
> Presidents: A Travel and History Guide 571-748-7660
>
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