It gets even more complicated than that. Some archeologists think that
there were two migrations out of Siberia to America in pre-historic times.
One was of people of so-called "Asiatic" stock like those peoples living in
eastern Siberia today. The other was of people in Siberia kin to the Ainu,
a "Caucasian" people who are the aboriginals of the Japanese Islands (the
Japanese migrated from Korea starting about 600 A.D. and conquered the
Ainu.) So, the first "Caucasian," if not the first "white" child born in
the New World was probably an Ainu born in western Alaska.
Harold S. Forsythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sunshine49" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Jamestown vs Plymouth Rock
>I think that's what they're going for. The first permanent English
>settlement, the beginnings of our system of government, etc. It's the
>continuity as well as the age that is important. They well realize it
>wasn't "the" first white settlement in the New World. But neither was
>Plimouth, arrgghh. They've even realized and changed Virginia Dare, the
>formerly "first white child born in the New World" [on Roanoke Is., now in
>NC] to the first English child born in the New World. Turns out a Viking
>boy was born much earlier, in what is now Newfoundland.
>
> Nancy
>
> -------
> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>
> --Daniel Boone
>
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Melinda Skinner wrote:
>
>> My sister, who has lived in Albuquerque for decades, is now amused at
>> the Virginian/Anglo versions of U.S. history that she learned growing up
>> here.
>> In New Mexico she learned (and teaches) about the many other invaders
>> here before the English.
>> If the Jamestown 2007 folks highlight the celebration as a commemoration
>> of the birth of the nation's system of government, they have a case.
>> --
>> Melinda C. P. Skinner
>> Writer and Wonderer
>>
>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>> From: Debra Jackson/Harold Forsythe <[log in to unmask]>
>>> No angry response from this New Yorker. I lost my (Western) manners
>>> within
>>> six months of moving to the East Coast. As a Westerner, I was
>>> tolerably
>>> polite in the South but as an Eastern I was pretty clunky. We call in
>>> "sincerity" or "straight talk" but it seems pretty rude to the rest of
>>> the
>>> USA. I apologize for my adopted section.
>>>
>>> Granting that, New York City is an immense place with more people than
>>> live
>>> in all of Virginia in an incredibly constricted space. Yes, it is
>>> provincial. Manhattan below 96th Street is downtown for an expansive
>>> area
>>> which includes neighborhoods in northern Manhattan, the Bronx (the only
>>> mainland area of the City) and on Long Island and Staten Island.
>>> People
>>> live within these neighborhoods, generally knowing only their
>>> neighborhood
>>> and the region where their job is located. Spike Lee once noted that
>>> if you
>>> lived in Brooklyn you never needed to go to the Bronx. I asked a lot
>>> of
>>> Brooklyn folks I know whether this was true and they all said yes.
>>>
>>> This is like a Richmonder saying they would never ever go to Ashland or
>>> Petersburg.
>>>
>>> Finally, New Yorkers do not resent mourners from out of town going to
>>> Ground
>>> Zero.
>>> That is the nation and the world sharing our grief. Besides, generally
>>> we
>>> never go near Ground Zero unless we have to. It is like the crossroads
>>> in
>>> southern mythology; little good comes from trespassing on that
>>> territory.
>>> New Yorkers generally do resent tourists because they clog up Midtown
>>> and
>>> make it difficult for us to get to our destinations efficiently. Our
>>> motto
>>> is "come to NY, spend your money rapidly, and leave."
>>>
>>> New Yorkers are remarkably self centered. I am not surprised that
>>> someone
>>> would claim the primacy of New York over Jamestown even though it is
>>> nonsense. The fact is that St. Petersburg, FL, Cuidad Mexico, Santo
>>> Domingo, DR, and Santa Fe, NM all pre-date Jamestown and New Amsterdam.
>>> New
>>> Yorkers couldn't care less, unless those cities brought some exotic
>>> cuisine
>>> for New Yorkers to eat.
>>>
>>> Harold S. Forsythe
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sunshine49" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 9:53 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Jamestown vs Plymouth Rock
>>>
>>>
>>>> Having been to NYC myself several times on business, I have a few
>>>> thoughts of my own about the place. The idea that "all New Yorkers
>>>> are
>>>> rude", well, to me they're not, NYC is an awfully big place with only
>>>> so
>>>> many pieces of the pie to go around, so in order to make a go of it,
>>>> my
>>>> suspicion is that New Yorkers have to bend rules, break rules and
>>>> push
>>>> and dig harder than most people elsewhere, just to get their little
>>>> piece. And it comes across as being rude, pushy, etc. They're not bad
>>>> people, tho, most of them are just doing what they have to do. But
>>>> that
>>>> said, I also see NYC as a very provincial place, in the sense that
>>>> they
>>>> know [or care to know] so little other than their own little corner
>>>> of
>>>> the world. Is that any different that the good people of East Podunk,
>>>> who
>>>> only know or care to know about East Podunk? NYC is the best, the
>>>> biggest, the toughest, the most resilient, New Yorkers can pull
>>>> through
>>>> anything, as if the people of New Orleans or Peoria or Portland
>>>> couldn't?
>>>> Oh, please. As I recall, that NY Times article made it sound as if
>>>> Jamestown was nothing more than the hovel we saw in the movie "The
>>>> New
>>>> World" [and one of their sneers was that the replica of Hudson's ship
>>>> was
>>>> used in the filming as one of the Jamestown ships, tsk tsk], and not
>>>> that
>>>> it existed for 90 years, had brick buildings [at one point the
>>>> largest
>>>> brick official public building in any of the colonies] and became the
>>>> basis for a productive colony that laid the groundwork for our
>>>> present
>>>> system of government. As I recall, the Dutch colony didn't actually
>>>> come
>>>> till some years after Henry Hudson's explorations, he didn't actually
>>>> "found" anything... for much of his voyage up the Hudson he seems to
>>>> have
>>>> been running his ship aground, pulling it out, running it aground,
>>>> didn't
>>>> he take depth readings or anything? He didn't seem to have been an
>>>> outstanding mariner to me.
>>>>
>>>> I think a NYC schizophrenia came out after the events of 9/11. The
>>>> whole
>>>> world wanted to sympathize with this horrifying tragedy that had
>>>> befallen
>>>> the city that promotes itself as the financial and cultural and
>>>> publishing [etc] center of America, if not the world. The people who
>>>> died
>>>> there that day had roots all over the globe. And yet NYC suddenly
>>>> wanted
>>>> the whole world to go away and let the city grieve alone, all the
>>>> "outsiders" then became obnoxious nuisances they resented, not
>>>> genuinely
>>>> caring citizens who shared in the grief of the city that has imposed
>>>> itself on our collective conscience. When you promote yourself
>>>> [continuously] as Number One, you can't then flip and shove people
>>>> away
>>>> when you feel the need.
>>>>
>>>> Now I'm sure we'll hear from some irate New Yorkers...
>>>>
>>>> Nancy
>>>>
>>>> -------
>>>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>>>
>>>> --Daniel Boone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 1, 2007, at 6:53 AM, David Kiracofe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I remember that article: in my recollection it was more about
>>>>> holding up
>>>>> a romanticized view of New Amsterdam/New York as a bustling, tolerant
>>>>> multi-cultural center than about Jamestown per se (although they did
>>>>> ride down the Virginians pretty hard). They were claiming that in
>>>>> light of what America became later, New Amsterdam/New York was more
>>>>> like
>>>>> that than Jamestown. The problem with that view of New York's
>>>>> origins
>>>>> is that it ignores all the bad parts of the Dutch colonial
>>>>> experiment:
>>>>> treatment of Indians, slavery, etc. The Dutch were rapacious
>>>>> capitalists after all, exploitative and harsh in their pursuit of
>>>>> profit
>>>>> (which also fits in with modern New Yorkers like Trump).
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kiracofe
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kiracofe
>>>>> History
>>>>> Tidewater Community College
>>>>> Chesapeake Campus
>>>>> 1428 Cedar Road
>>>>> Chesapeake, Virginia 23322
>>>>> 757-822-5136
>>>>>>>> Sunshine49 <[log in to unmask]> 01/31/07 10:32 PM >>>
>>>>> Late last year there was an article on the NY Times website, maybe
>>>>> you all discussed it here. Talk about hooey- a few NY "historians"
>>>>> claiming Jamestown had no hold on the national development at all, it
>>>>> was a bunch of wood and mud hovels that soon fell into the mud, the
>>>>> real beginning that should get the credit was... Henry Hudson! Boy I
>>>>> wrote them a pointed letter, and my guess is I was not the only one.
>>>>> By the time the day was half gone, they had pulled the prominently
>>>>> placed article from the website. The arguments by those "historians"
>>>>> were the most biased, ignorance-based loads of baloney I have ever
>>>>> read.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nancy
>>>>>
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