On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:

> Lyle,
>
> Can you cite any cases where a white man was convicted of raping a  
> slave, especially his own slave or that of a close relative? Had  
> Thomas Jefferson or his brother acted without Sally's consent, what  
> course would she have taken to achieve justice? How often was such a  
> course successful? How often was it attempted?
I am not, but then my knowledge of law is rather limited. Perhaps  
others of a more legal persuasion would be able to answer that from  
case law. BUT, that wasn't my point. Rape is illegal is one end of the  
extreme, consensual relations are at the other. My point is that not  
all relationships across the "color line" were coercive. I can cite  
cases where marriages occurred and lasted. In one case, the remainder  
of the family "forgot" them completely and it was through  
archaeological research that they were rediscovered. Interesting story  
in itself, that.
>
>
> Is "broadbrushing" in error?
Yes. All "you fill in the blank" are "you fill in the blank" is but  
one example. Stereotypical broadbrushing is a useful historical tool  
when used to inform and to elucidate. When used pejoratively as you  
have, it is not useful.

> There is a legal terms that mean "the thing stands for  
> itself" (can't remember my latin at the moment), and I think that is  
> relevent in this case.
That would be dragging the definition well beyond its intended meaning  
and intent.
>
>
> My personal feeling is that the statement of the mother should stand  
> as unequivocable proof of the paternity of a child until or unless  
> it is proven otherwise.
Oh great, and that's why fathers today are paying child support for  
children who are not theirs. "He did it" works best when ignorance is  
rampant.

> Sally told her children who their father was. End of issue.
Again for the thousandth time, oral history is not necessarily right.  
It is hardly the end of the issue as the vehement discourse on this  
list amply illustrates. Oral history must be taken for what it is and  
not as an absolute.

> She told Eston a different story from Madison. There were two  
> different fathers. But, Madison said his mother said that Thomas  
> Jefferson was his father, and in absence of any solid proof that  
> this is wrong, that should be the end of the matter.
That is just wrong on so many levels it amazes me that you would think  
it remotely valid. Do not confuse what you want to believe with what  
may be any of 3 variables of what actually happened.
>
>
> Is there one shred of evidence that Thomas Jefferson was not the  
> father?
Is there one shred that he is? The short answer is no, as according to  
DNA the Scottish verdict is: case not proved.

> He said that Callendar's allegations were wrong except for the one  
> for which he was compelled, for the sake of the honor of the  
> cuckolded husband, to admit. TJ even lied to his daughters prior to  
> being forced to confess, about his behavior, and even in his  
> apology, admitted that he misbehaved once, when young and unmarried,  
> whereas the woman he wronged had said he persisted over 10 years,  
> including after he was married and even when in the same building as  
> his wife. So, if we apply Herbert Barger's standards of "liars", I  
> think we can assert that on this issue we cannot accept Jefferson's  
> word that he didn't do it.
I think you are applying an impossibly high standard and are logically  
incorrect in your conclusion. Hands up all who haven't made an error  
or three in their lives, but that does not mean that all errors can be  
laid at their doorstep.

Again, all the bloviation in the world from both extremes of this  
issue is not going to solve anything. Both sides have marshaled their  
arguments back and forth ad nauseum and we are exactly where we were  
since the DNA results came back, except that folks have completely  
misunderstood them and have acted accordingly and incorrectly with  
conclusions that are not supported by the evidence.

Lyle Browning


>
>
> Anne
>
> Anne Pemberton
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask] 
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:06 PM
> Subject: Re: What is the current defination of "revisionist history"?
>
>
>> It seems to me that you are rather broad-brushing the issue.  
>> Outright rape was and is illegal, despite the roadblocks that were  
>> put into  place to exclude blacks from the courtroom.
>>
>> Coercion, both overt and covert, undeniably took place. But your  
>> claim exceeds the bounds when it asserts that all such acts were  
>> coercive.
>>
>> You are also of the mindset that the impetus was directly and only   
>> from the male. Bimbette of 20 snares rich old guy of 80 springs to   
>> mind. Purity of heart is not a universal, nor is venality, but it  
>> does  exist.
>>
>> There are those situations which resulted in the marriage of the  
>> two individuals of different races.
>>
>> Life is way more complicated and it is difficult if not impossible  
>> to ascertain absolutes in individual cases. Historic trends rely  
>> on  safety in numbers as to results, but as to motive, debates  
>> will  continue.
>>
>> Lyle Browning
>>
>>
>> On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:03 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>> Herbert,
>>>
>>> I seriously doubt that you have found any of those authors "with   
>>> their hand in the till" to any greater extent than that of any  
>>> other  author who write a book and expects to profit from the  
>>> sales. Your  constant mischaracterization of people you don't know  
>>> beans about is  one more nail in the coffin of your idea of  
>>> "truth" vs "lies".
>>>
>>> As to my website, it is a volunteer effort on my part and the  
>>> site  is provided by a charitable organization, The Enabling  
>>> Support  Foundation http://www.enabling.org founded by a good  
>>> friend, Dr.  Robert Zenhausern who provides all funding for the  
>>> foundation and  supports the server my works lives on. You may  
>>> find it of interest  that my first website was on Virginia's PEN  
>>> (it has only come off in  the past few months since I no longer  
>>> keep it up). I assume that you  would know that Virginia's PEN,  
>>> for which I was one of the original  builders, was the joint  
>>> project of the DOE and UVA. I ran the  Academy One project on  
>>> Virginia's PEN, which was the forerunner of  Educational  
>>> Synthesis: http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>
>>> You may also note that my website ends with a "org". That means I  
>>> do  not market ANYTHING! The stories I write both under My Own  
>>> Books and  Famous Americans, are free to any user, and the users  
>>> are from just  about every country in the world. I have, as an  
>>> aside, written one  book, but it is not on history, which is sold  
>>> in a paper version. I  do not "advertise" it on this list and am  
>>> not doing so now.
>>>
>>> Now, as to miscegynation, it is a disgrace when practiced, as is   
>>> evident in the current population in Virginia, without the  
>>> consent  of the woman. As a slave, the woman had no right to  
>>> refuse the  master anything he ordered, whether it was to service  
>>> his needs, or  that of his friends and relatives. To assert that  
>>> this cannot be  "proved" without an admission of the white man, is  
>>> to continue, in  the 21st century, the abusive mindset of the time  
>>> of slavery. Every  one of those half-white children had a father,  
>>> and with today's  scientific advancements, and those that will  
>>> come tomorrow, it IS  possible to ascertain with scientific  
>>> certainty which white man did  the deed. White men who practice  
>>> abusive sex are no longer shielded  by the notion that only those  
>>> children they "acknowledge" are theirs.
>>>
>>> And, it is assertions such as you made today about mixed race   
>>> children being "fatherless" unless the skunk who did it chooses  
>>> to  "fess up" that is the reason behind my statement that  
>>> Jefferson,  being a man and a Virginian, and with the  
>>> circumstancial evidence  I've personally examined, is highly  
>>> likely to be the father of Sally  Hemings children. And, if he is  
>>> not the father, but the uncle, he  was a PIMP!
>>>
>>> Anne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anne Pemberton
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Barger" <[log in to unmask]
>>> >
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: What is the current defination of "revisionist  
>>> history"?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Anne,
>>>>
>>>> If evidence found and supported by science or other provable   
>>>> historical
>>>> records then I would consider that "historical information." On the
>>>> other hand, if the researchers were "caught with their hand in  
>>>> the till"
>>>> as I have found with people around the TJ/Sally controversy and  
>>>> their
>>>> reports were biased/one sided and denied and HID a Minority  
>>>> Report  and
>>>> the head researcher had been hired to complement the study with  
>>>> their
>>>> owned preconceived outcome........THEN I would say, "it's  
>>>> revisionist
>>>> garbage."
>>>>
>>>> I would hope that your own highly advertised organization on these
>>>> (state/commonwealth) supported pages, is not misrepresenting real
>>>> research to purchasers of your material. You do ask for proof do  
>>>> you
>>>> not?
>>>>
>>>> Herb Barger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herbert,
>>>>
>>>> I believe I am correct in saying that most historians of the last
>>>> century
>>>> were in agreement that Sumer (Sumeria) was the earliest  
>>>> civilization.
>>>>
>>>> Then, if I am reading a book that dates evidence of cities with   
>>>> public
>>>> buildings and agriculture in Peru to at least as far back as 3500  
>>>> BC
>>>> based
>>>> on evidence discovered in this century, would you consider that new
>>>> historical information, or "revisionist history"????
>>>>
>>>> Anne
>>>>
>>>> Anne Pemberton
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>>
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