I saw the story about Ms. Loving's passing online at
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24468808/ The article note, "Each June 12,
the anniversary of the ruling, Loving Day events around the country mark
the advances of mixed-race couples."
Vina
Vina Hutchinson Farmer
Museum Grant Writer
Manassas Museum System
9101 Prince William Street
Manassas VA 20110
703-257-8456
(fax) 703-257-8406
www.manassasmuseum.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
It's been on the Richmond Times Dispatch website, and the Hampton
Roads one too, as well as on tv. Why is Virginia "still not for lovers"?
Nancy
-------
I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
--Daniel Boone
On May 6, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Ray, Tom (LVA) wrote:
> The front page of the print version of the Richmond Times Dispatch
> today
> reports the death of Mildred Jeter Loving. It is sad to note that her
> passing is almost unfindable online.
>
> Mrs. Loving was an unsung American heroine who still came back to her
> native Virginia after facing harassment, bigotry and just plain
> stupidity.
>
> It is so ironic that the couple that broke miscegenation laws was
> named
> Loving. Ironic too that the most famous state campaign slogan in
> the US,
> "Virginia is for Lovers," is so far from the truth. It was not true in
> Jefferson's day, was not true in the Loving's day, and still is not
> true.
>
> If you read this far in this post I hope you will take a moment and
> reflect on Mr. and Mrs. Loving and the legacy their lives have left
> us.
>
>
> Tom H. Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ray Bonis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:51 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [VA-HIST] What would Jefferson think about this debate?
>
> "Be polite to all, but intimate with few." - Thomas Jefferson.
>
> How about the dozen or so who are driving this debate about Jefferson
> into the ground move the discussion OFF the Virginia History list
> serve
> discussion group - just send the emails to yourselves.
>
> Let's pick a NEW topic.
>
> How about Emancipation Day in Virginia - I know African Americans in
> Richmond celebrated this day on and off for a number of years after
> the
> Civil War -- check out this site:
>
> http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/vbha/freedom.html
>
> Does anyone have evidence that this was celebrated in other cities in
> Virginia? Why did it die out?
>
> -- Ray B.
> VCU Libraries
>
> Herbert "the badger" Barger wrote:
>> Nancy (who should let it go),
>>
>> I must apologize if I "misread" you earlier remarks on "scum".....a
>> rereading of that sentence makes it clear that you are referring to
>> some who have differing thoughts and wordings in their remarks.
>> Sorry!
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:36 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>
>> I certainly hope you are not implying that I think of TJ as
>> "scum", as
>
>> I do not and never said I did. I said he was great OR scum, depending
>> on what view the particular person was pressing. I was only pointing
>> out [or trying to] the polar opposites the issue seems to bring
>> out in
>
>> people. And it seems to be more a reflection of the person doing the
>> observing, than what any real story is about Mr.
>> Jefferson. But no, I do not think he is "scum." I think he was
>> basically a great man with human flaws, who was fortunate to be born
>> in a time when his talents were needed. If he had been born in, say,
>> 1932 he might have been a brilliant local eccentric, self-publishing
>> little tracts with his intellectual musings and buying 100 acres in
>> Arizona to experiment with crops and tinker around the homestead. And
>> that, barring concrete evidence, we should stop projecting our own
>> issues onto him.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -------
>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>
>> --Daniel Boone
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 5, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Herbert Barger wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Nancy,
>>>
>>> You have a great handle on the issue and you state it well. The
>>> Jefferson-Hemings issue started as a James Callender Campaign Lie
>>> that was proved just that by DNA.....NO match between TJ and Tom
> Woodson.
>>> Fawn Brodie came along with her weird analysis and told the Eston
>>> relatives that why should they cling to the long held belief that
>>> their ancestor was "a Jefferson uncle", meaning Randolph Jefferson
>>> WHEN they could claim THOMAS himself and since then this is what we
>>> have. They even threw Fawn Brodie out of her LDS Church for
>>> degrading
>
>>> and painting their founder in a bad light.........just as a similar
>>> approach of TJ.
>>> But in the Jefferson case we have people WILLING to receive the
>>> UPGRADE in brothers to enhance their image, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Your portrayal of Mr. Jefferson as "SCUM" pretty well enlightens
>>> your
>
>>> readers as to your thoughts and beliefs.
>>>
>>> Herb Barger
>>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sunshine49
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:02 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Jefferson's Overseer
>>>
>>> there were also white/ black marriages, or relationships, look at
>>> some of the runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette, a mixed couple
>>> thought to be passing as husband and wife, or a man and woman of
>>> each
>
>>> race ran off together. These weren't rapes. In Nov.1797 William
>>> Cardwell, who was white, married "Betty Brown, colored, of lawful
>>> age, Kitty Brown her mother" in Henrico County. So there would be
>>> some white genes in their descendants that were not the result of
>>> plantation rape. They got married, presumably they cared for each
>>> other, to defy convention of the times like they did. Is it some
>>> sort
>
>>> of "outrage identity" to think all white- black sex was the
>>> result of
>
>>> rape by masters on their slaves? It was a very complex subject; rent
>>> or buy "African Americans Lives" 1 & 2 and you'll see how complex it
>>> was.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if this Mobius Strip of a topic will ever end, future
>>> historians reading these posts will wonder at all the time and brain
>>> cells put into arguing what are basically points of view. Mr.
>>> Jefferson was great, Mr. Jefferson was scum. He seems to be used
>>> here
>
>>> as a means of validating one's view of Colonial life. And since
>>> there
>
>>> is so little that is CONCRETE about this particular issue, it is
>>> easy
>
>>> to do, and the debate can continue forever. Personally, I feel that
>>> DNA shows that one of Ms. Hemmings' children was sired by "A"
>>> Jefferson male. The family says it was T. Jefferson's uncle. But we
>>> can discount DNA and family stories because some smear -mongering
>>> newspaperman and one census entry say otherwise. Mr. Jefferson owned
>>> slaves, therefore he had to have raped at least one of them.
>>> Repeatedly. That's nothing but surmise. It would not hold up in
>>> history or in court. I suspect for a lot of the Jefferson defenders,
>>> the surmise aspect of it is what rankles the most. People are
>>> passing
>
>>> very harsh judgement on a man and trashing him, with almost nothing
>>> in the way of proof.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents.
>>>
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> -------
>>> I was never lost, but I was bewildered once for three days.
>>>
>>> --Daniel Boone
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Ray Bonis
> Special Collections and Archives
> VCU Libraries
> 804-828-1108
>
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