Stephan,
Considerin Jon Kukla's book in whole, it would seem that Jefferson
encountered the word "no" in most of his attempts at intimacy beginning with
Rebecca Burwell. Mrs. Walker said no .... repeatedly. And if, as you
suggest, there were more ladies in Paris that he tried to schmooze, he heard
"no" from all women he approached other than his wife and Sally. I would
suspect that the boils and eczema were possibly due to unclean water in
Paris. He would have been used to much cleaner water at Monticello even if
the water in the large cities was starting to get rank by then.
I've read many books on Jefferson over the years - adding to my collection
whenever I had occasion to be in Charlottesville was always a treat. But
this book by Jon Kukla is a real eye-opener ... even more so than Fawn
Brodie's book (I have never read Gordan-Reed's book). At least after reading
Fawn Brodie, I got a sense of romance on the part of Jefferson, but after
reading the details on the Walker situation, I am ready to dump the whole of
Jefferson into the category of lecherous men who are an impediment to the
intellectual freedom and advancement, as well as to the virtue, of all women
they meet. And Jefferson had the audacity to complain about the "virtue" of
European Women?
Shameful!
Anne
Anne Pemberton
[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/apembert
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan A. Schwartz" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
Barger's opinion
>I doubt it, Anne, it would have worked against his goal of creating what
>he called Virtuous Citizens.
>
> By the by, almost all, indeed, very possibly all, of his known dalliances
> were literary romances, i.e., he flirted and wrote mildly suggestive
> flirtatious letters, but there is little real evidence they were
> consummated. His known loves in Paris, for instance, were never physical,
> not only because of his great age and ill-health (he was covered with
> boils and eczema for much of his time there), but because the ladies
> said, "No."
>
> -- Stephan
>
>
> On 8 May 2008, at 19:32, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>
>> Melinda,
>>
>> I tend to agree with you that Franklin would enjoy having his daliances
>> given air whereas Jefferson had more reason to be ashamed of his
>> behavior.
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> Anne Pemberton
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melinda Skinner"
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
>> Barger's opinion
>>
>>
>>> The disappointing difference, I propose, is that Franklin would
>>> probably enjoy having his dalliances and social adventures discussed;
>>> while Jefferson would be humiliated. It's just not as much fun.
>>> -Melinda
>>> --
>>> Melinda C. P. Skinner
>>> Richmond, VA
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>>> From: "Lyle E. Browning" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Your summation is absolutely why it is necessary to pursue the
>>>> scientific evidence. Thanks for proving that.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing quite smashes into so many pieces as the perception of a
>>>> fallen "great".
>>>>
>>>> Let's now Fry Franklin. After all, he diddled "old ladies" who were
>>>> said to be "grateful".
>>>>
>>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Lyle,
>>>> >
>>>> > If you peruse all my posts over the years, you will find that I
>>>> have
>>>> > always maintained that is was possible, probably, and then,
>>>> likely,
>>>> > as I've seen more and more evidence come to light. With the
>>>> evidence
>>>> > presented in Kukla's book on the Walker case, I am now convinced
>>>> > that Jefferson was not the man of integrity that some try to paint
>>>> > him as. I now do not thing Jefferson has much integrety to defend
>>>> > after all. The most damning evidence is that Jefferson
>>>> continued to
>>>> > try to seduce his neighbor even after he was married, as
>>>> illustrated
>>>> > in the fact that he accosted the woman in her own home, in her own
>>>> > private sanctuary, while his wife slept nearby.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Walker case may not damn Jefferson in regards to the situation
>>>> > with Hemings, but it definitely put him on moldy, clay feet as far
>>>> > as the integrity issue is concerned.
>>>> >
>>>> > What is more upsetting than the details of the Walker case, and
>>>> the
>>>> > strong evidence toward the Hemings case, are the details on his
>>>> > disdain for women and his efforts to derail women's equality, as
>>>> > well as equality of Africans, at a time when they should have been
>>>> > made clear -at the birth of a new nation.
>>>> >
>>>> > It is no longer just an issue of whether Jefferson diddled his
>>>> > comely maid, but whether than man even deserves to be lauded for
>>>> > ANYTHING he did to establish the first democratic/republican
>>>> form of
>>>> > government.
>>>> >
>>>> > Anne
>>>> > Anne Pemberton
>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>> > http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>> > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >
>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>> > >
>>>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:12 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web
>>>> page in
>>>> > Barger's opinion
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not a proof. It is an argument and in fact a
>>>> >> cherry picked argument based upon your apparent predisposition to
>>>> >> a viewpoint. And for the record, I am not referring and have
>>>> >> NEVER referred to the published works of the various authors as
>>>> >> pop- psychology, and certainly not Jon Kukla. Arguments have been
>>>> >> marshaled for both sides of the issue and will not settle the
>>>> >> matter. What appears to be your uncritical acceptance of a
>>>> diarist
>>>> >> without examination of mental template of the diarist is at
>>>> best a
>>>> >> rush to judgment. Having a dozen other folks weigh in with
>>>> >> examples of the same apparent conduct by the planter class does
>>>> >> not get farther along the line of proving that the one person
>>>> did
>>>> >> so. That's tarring the group with the brush, as in all Germans
>>>> >> were Nazis.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This whole issue is now way beyond being solved by argument.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On May 8, 2008, at 12:50 AM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Lyle,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Would that it were possible to just dig 'em all up and test
>>>> them.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't know if you have read Kukla's book, but it is certainly
>>>> >>> not pop-psychology, but rests on the word of Jefferson's
>>>> >>> contemporaries as much as the word of oral histories.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If you have a copy of the book, I refer you to page 119 where
>>>> the
>>>> >>> words of a neighbor of Jefferson, General Cocke, referring to
>>>> the
>>>> >>> instances of slave mistresses, from his diary, are published:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "I can enumerate a score of such cases in our beloved Ancient
>>>> >>> Dominion. It is too well known that they are not few, nor far
>>>> >>> between ... Were they enumerated with the statistics of the
>>>> >>> State, they would be found by hundreds. Nor is it to be
>>>> wondered
>>>> >>> at, when Jefferson's notorious example is considered."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> and the same author, said, a few years later:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "All bachelors, or a large majority at least, keep as a
>>>> >>> substitute for a wife some individual of their own Slaves. In
>>>> >>> Virginia, this damnable practice prevails as much as
>>>> anywhere and
>>>> >>> probably more, as Mr. Jefferson's example can be pleaded for
>>>> its
>>>> >>> defense."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I am reading now in Appendix A, which includes a selection of
>>>> >>> letters exchanged about the ten year attempted seduction of Mrs.
>>>> >>> Walker, the wife of a supposedly close friend, which was carried
>>>> >>> on even after Jefferson was married, and is established as fact
>>>> >>> by the exchange of letters in which Mr. Walker asks for the
>>>> >>> intervention of mutual friends, including Justice John
>>>> Marshall,
>>>> >>> to reclaim his honor.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Although I have known about the Hemings affair for some many
>>>> >>> years, this is the first I have seen such details as establish
>>>> >>> that no only did Jefferson press the wife of his friend for
>>>> >>> immoral purposes, but that he also lied to his daughter
>>>> about why
>>>> >>> relations with the Walkers had cooled on the family's return
>>>> from
>>>> >>> France during which time, Mrs. Walker finally felt comfortable
>>>> >>> telling her husband why she objected to Jefferson as
>>>> executor of
>>>> >>> her husband's will for the moral danger it would place her
>>>> under
>>>> >>> in the event the he met an early demise.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It is also interesting that Kukla brings out the fact that the
>>>> >>> terrible liar, Callender, was employed by Jefferson to write
>>>> >>> scandelous lies about John Adams and his presidency.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> What goes around comes around.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Thank you, Jon Kukla, not only for researching and writing this
>>>> >>> book, but also for letting us know about it on this forum. I
>>>> find
>>>> >>> your book most enlightening, and a fair reading of your book
>>>> will
>>>> >>> put a lot of the nonsense that has been said on this list in
>>>> >>> recent days, to the lie.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Anne
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Anne Pemberton
>>>> >>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> >>> http://www.erols.com/apembert
>>>> >>> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle E. Browning" >>>
>>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:34 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web
>>>> page
>>>> >>> in Barger's opinion
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On May 7, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Anne Pemberton wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture.
>>>> >>>>> Limiting your belief to only scientific testing is limiting
>>>> >>>>> your ability to approach this issue logically.
>>>> >>>> Good grief, here we go again. This is getting to the point that
>>>> >>>> it's as bad as 10 archaeologists in a room and having 11
>>>> >>>> opinions as to what something means. All the argument in the
>>>> >>>> world is not going to solve the case as it is now.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Science has that capability. If you want the answers, then DNA
>>>> >>>> testing is the only means of getting there. All this pop-
>>>> >>>> psychology of WWTJD is just so much hot air. It gets us not one
>>>> >>>> jot farther along to solving the problem than before. But,
>>>> alas,
>>>> >>>> we're dealing with fallible, or stubborn or whatever people who
>>>> >>>> have agendas, conscious or not. Were it in my power, I'd dig up
>>>> >>>> the lot of them and get some DNA and chips fall where they may.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> In my world, this has happened all too often. We get a big man
>>>> >>>> who's word is law, we argue the case and we all get to a point
>>>> >>>> where we can go no farther. Until the next bit of evidence
>>>> comes
>>>> >>>> in and then off the pedestal the big man comes. We propose
>>>> >>>> another grand idea and we argue the evidence to exhaustion and
>>>> >>>> then wait until the next bit comes along. That's how science
>>>> >>>> works. It's evidence driven, and is not ultimately driven by
>>>> >>>> posturing in one direction or another.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Bottom line is if you want to know whether TJ dallied with SH,
>>>> >>>> dig'em up and test'em, all of them. The truth is in the
>>>> alleles.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to
>>>> >>>>> let in a little sunshine and logic.
>>>> >>>> May you live by those words as well.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Lyle Browning, RPA
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ______________________________________
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>>>> >>>
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