Odd duck or not, Nebraska still has a unicameral legislature. I think
they call them senators but since it's Nebraska and they are mostly
concerned with corn, maybe they should be called Unicorns. Along with
old Ben Franklin, I think the unicameral form might have some merit. But
then there would not be enough places for ambitious folks.
Jim Hershman
[log in to unmask] wrote:
>If its any help, the medieval English Parliament's early history was
>similar - elected members met WITH Lords early on . . . but (if memory
>serves) its not till about the 13th century that a House of Commons gets
>organized separately with its own Speaker and clerk etc...
> Some of the other colonies (Mass and Maryland for example) began with
>unicameral assemblies that became bicameral later -- by the revolution,
>Pennsylvania seemed the odd duck for having a unicameral legislature....
>
>Back when I was digging into this stuff, Frank Craven suggested that I
>read Virginia primary sources and English parliamentary history - which I
>did including three volumes on the history of the English Speakers of
>House of Commons etc etc etc ... way out of fashion at the time and
>probably still....
>Jon
>
>
>
>>thanks
>>
>>[log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Exactly,
>>> The elected members were BURGESSES, but they were not yet meeting and
>>>organized as a separate HOUSE.
>>>Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ok, then why does the statute in 1629-39 refer to the "names of the
>>>>Burgesses"? I am not trying to create an argument here. As we say out
>>>>here in Oklahoma, "I have no dogs in this fight" -- I just want to
>>>>figure it out, so I get it right. If I am understanding you correctly,
>>>>the members of the legislature called themselves "Burgesses" in the 1629
>>>>statute and inthe 1642 statute I quoted below, but they were not yet
>>>>part of something that was officially called "The House of Burgesses."
>>>>Is that right?
>>>>
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>[log in to unmask] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Paul-
>>>>>In a nutshell, from 1619-1642 Virginia's unicameral entity was called
>>>>>either the General or Grand Assembly - from 1643 to 1776 the General
>>>>>Assembly (now bicameral) comprised the Council and the House of
>>>>>Burgesses.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jon Kukla
>>>>>
>>>>>One will not find the name "House of Burgesses" in any primary source
>>>>>prior to the 1640s - just as one will not find "The United States of
>>>>>America" prior to the revolution. Back in 1873 I read VCRP microfilm
>>>>>etc
>>>>>8
>>>>>hours a day for a month . . .
>>>>> The salient thing about your first quote, Paul, is that it is from
>>>>>W.
>>>>>W. Hening's HEADNOTE - written earily in the 19th century - not from
>>>>>the contemporary 17th-century sources he was publishing. Hening and
>>>>>McIlwaine and lots of others were reading back into the 17th-c a
>>>>>structure that only began in 1643. In the Jefferson MSS at Library of
>>>>>Congress, one can see portions of the original manuscript text that
>>>>>Hening circled with a note to the typesetter that said "Omit" - in at
>>>>>least one case the omitted material supported my interpretation of the
>>>>>structure of the assembly . . . but I digress.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warren Billings's new book (as well as my dissertation and my
>>>>>_Speakers
>>>>>and Clerks of the Virginia House of Burgesses, 1643-1776)) document all
>>>>>this in detail, but in a nutshell:
>>>>>
>>>>>1619-1642 Unicameral General or Grand Assembly (literally meeting in
>>>>>one
>>>>>room)
>>>>> First General Assembly of 1619 was an expanded meeting of governor
>>>>>and
>>>>>Council with the addition of elected "burgesses" from various of the
>>>>>settlements :
>>>>> the self-styled "Speaker" John Pory was in fact secretary of the
>>>>>colony
>>>>>and a member of the Council, not an elected burgess.
>>>>> the word "burgess" was English parliamentary term for representative
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>from a borough (as opposed to a shire or county) hence it goes along
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>with the early Virginia entities of James City, Charles City, Elizabeth
>>>>>City .... (I dealt with the myth of the county formation in 1634 in an
>>>>>article in Virginia Genealogist back in the 1980s ... formal counties
>>>>>date to the early 1640s, too.)
>>>>> During these decades, the unicameral body was sometimes called the
>>>>>Grand
>>>>>Assembly, burgesses sat together with governor and council, having been
>>>>>elected by various geographical settlements and sometimes by parishes.
>>>>> When using Hening and especially McIlwaine one must be careful not to
>>>>>let _their_ misunderstandings obstruct one's perception of the primary
>>>>>sources . . . . (I addressed this in my introductions to the 2d
>>>>>editions of the (as McIlwaine called them) the Legislative Journals of
>>>>>the Council and the Minutes of the Council and General Court (both
>>>>>reprint editions published about 1979 I think).
>>>>> One also needs to escape the misunderstanding in Robert Beverly's
>>>>>History where he claimed that a House of Burgesses started meeting
>>>>>separately in 1680 - I dealt with that in VMHB back in 70s. Beverley
>>>>>lifted and misunderstood passages from an earlier report by Hartwell,
>>>>>Chilton and Blair.
>>>>>
>>>>>1643-1776 Bicameral General Assembly comprised of Council and House of
>>>>>Burgesses properly so called.
>>>>> 1643 is first meeting of a bicameral General Assembly with the
>>>>>elected
>>>>>members organized separately as a "lower" house properly called the
>>>>>House of Burgesses - and first real "Speaker" a burgess (unlike Pory)
>>>>>
>>>>>============
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Warren: I am confused. What was the body called from 1619 to 1643?
>>>>>>After 1643 is the colonial legislature a unicameral and then called
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>House of Burgesses? Hening, vol. 1, p. 230 mentions in a headnote an
>>>>>>act "signed by the Governor, memebrs of hte Council and House of
>>>>>>Burgesses, and dates at James City, the first day of April 1642."
>>>>>>That
>>>>>>would be a year before 1643." That act (also on page 230) says it was
>>>>>>passed by the "We the Governor, Council and Burgesses of the Grand
>>>>>>Assembly in Virginia...." But, 1 Hening 147 (March 24 1629-30) lists
>>>>>>"the names of the Burgesses..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, there were Burgesses in in 1629-30, but were they not yet "the
>>>>>>House
>>>>>>of Burgesses"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>>>Chapman Distinguished Professor
>>>>>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>>>>>3120 East 4th Place
>>>>>>Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
>>>>>>
>>>>>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>>>>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Brent Tarter wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Va-Hist subscriber Warren Billings asked me to post this to the list,
>>>>>>>as
>>>>>>>he has had some computer difficulty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Subject: Another bit of pedantry
>>>>>>>Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:32:47 -0600
>>>>>>>From: "Dr. Warren M. Billings" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Permit me to add another bit of pedantry to the recent postings about
>>>>>>>ecclesiastical law and practices in colonial Virginia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In those discussions, several commentators equate "House of
>>>>>>>Burgesses"
>>>>>>>with "General Assembly." Those were not synonymous terms. The General
>>>>>>>Assembly, after 1643, consisted of the governor-general, the Council
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>State, and the House of Burgesses, all of whom had to concur before
>>>>>>>any
>>>>>>>bill passed into law. Constitutionally, therefore, the house could
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>enact laws ex mero motu. Also, the burgesses could not "enforce" the
>>>>>>>law
>>>>>>>of religion or any other for that matter. The power and obligation
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>execution of the statutes in force lay with the colony's magistracy.
>>>>>>>To
>>>>>>>be sure, many of those magistrates sat on the Council or in the
>>>>>>>House,
>>>>>>>but when they enforced the law, they did so in their capacity as
>>>>>>>General
>>>>>>>Court judge or justice of the peace, not as councillor of state or
>>>>>>>burgess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The General Assembly, as Jon Kukla and others have clearly
>>>>>>>demonstrated,
>>>>>>>began as a unicameral body. Thus, there was no House of Burgesses
>>>>>>>between 1619 and 1643, the year Sir William Berkeley encouraged the
>>>>>>>assembly to become bicameral.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Warren M. Billings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Warren M. Billings
>>>>>>>Distinguished Professor
>>>>>>>Department of History
>>>>>>>University of New Orleans
>>>>>>>New Orleans, Louisiana 70148
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>>>>instructions
>>>>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>>>instructions
>>>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Dr. Jon Kukla, Executive Vice-President
>>>>>Red Hill - The Patrick Henry National Memorial
>>>>>1250 Red Hill Road
>>>>>Brookneal, Virginia 24528
>>>>>www.redhill.org
>>>>>Phone 434-376-2044 or 800-514-7463
>>>>>
>>>>>Fax 434-376-2647
>>>>>
>>>>>- M. Lynn Davis, Office Manager
>>>>>- Karen Gorham-Smith, Associate Curator
>>>>>- Edith Poindexter, Curator
>>>>>
>>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>>instructions
>>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Paul Finkelman
>>>>Chapman Distinguished Professor
>>>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>>>3120 East 4th Place
>>>>Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
>>>>
>>>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>>>
>>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
>>>>instructions
>>>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Dr. Jon Kukla, Executive Vice-President
>>>Red Hill - The Patrick Henry National Memorial
>>>1250 Red Hill Road
>>>Brookneal, Virginia 24528
>>>www.redhill.org
>>>Phone 434-376-2044 or 800-514-7463
>>>
>>>Fax 434-376-2647
>>>
>>>- M. Lynn Davis, Office Manager
>>>- Karen Gorham-Smith, Associate Curator
>>>- Edith Poindexter, Curator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Paul Finkelman
>>Chapman Distinguished Professor
>>University of Tulsa College of Law
>>3120 East 4th Place
>>Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
>>
>>918-631-3706 (office)
>>918-631-2194 (fax)
>>
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Dr. Jon Kukla, Executive Vice-President
>Red Hill - The Patrick Henry National Memorial
>1250 Red Hill Road
>Brookneal, Virginia 24528
>www.redhill.org
>Phone 434-376-2044 or 800-514-7463
>
>Fax 434-376-2647
>
>- M. Lynn Davis, Office Manager
>- Karen Gorham-Smith, Associate Curator
>- Edith Poindexter, Curator
>
>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the instructions
>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
>
>
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