Anne,
Excuse me for the 'fat finger' error and poor spell checking; however, we
both know what I mean, so the 'rib' at me to lessen my input is
understood.
Any way you wish to rationlize it...Lincoln, while negations were
UNDERWAY, lied and planned to force the South's hand. The last thing the
South wanted was war, but felt forced into it by Lincoln's dishonesty and
lies.
Also, we both know, Lincoln could have continued the negations as well and
not sent the ship in the first place and, also, not to call for 75,000
troops to put down a rebellion that never happened. Both parties could
have returned to negations, as the South requested many times during the
war. If the call for the 75,000 troops had never gone out (an authority
Lincoln did not constitutionally have, by the way), the last 4 states
would not have secceeded, to include Virginia, much more lessening the
chance of war.
War is something the South did not want, but the North did, in order to
maintian their control over the Southern ports, or, as they said, to
maintain the union.
The ship, by the way, laid off shore, and, along with other warships with
it, did nothing to return fire, etc.; it then returned to the New York
harbor where it set off from.
Per Bruce Catton: "Lincoln had been plainly warned by [his military
advisers] that a ship taking provisions to Fort Sumpter would be fired on.
Now he was sending the ship, with advance notice to the men who had the
guns. He was sending ships and soldiers as well...If there was going to
be a war it would begin over a boat load of salt port and crackers..."
Per Shelby Foote: "Lincoln had maneuvered [the Confederates] into the
position of having either to back down on their threats or elsse to fire
the first shot of the war..."
Additionally: Buffalo Daily Courier (Apr 16, 1861): The afair at Fort
Sumter...has been planned as a means by which the war feeling of the north
should be intensified." New York Evening Day Book (Apr 17, 1861):
'...that the event at Fort Sumter was "a cunning devised scheme" contrived
"to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern[sic] people against
the South."' and, The Jersey City American Standard (Apr 12, 1861):
"...there is a madness and ruthlessness [in Lincoln's behavior] which is
astounding...this unarmed vessell...is a mere decoy to draw the first fire
from the people of the South, which act by the pre-determination of the
[Federal] government is to be the pretext for letting loose the horrors of
war."
The South talked with the north in trying to avoid war, but they [the
Norht] talked out of one side of it's mouth in the form of A. Loncoln,
while he was making plans to force the issue at Fort Sumter, even after he
has said he would abandon the fort.
Maitland
--- Anne Pemberton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Maitland,
>
> I'm unsure what you mean by "several thousand soldiers hidden
> in
> it's holes". I've never heard reference to the "holes" of a ship. Did
> you
> mean hold? What happened to this ship? Did it land in the harbor? What
> happened to the soldiers in the hold?
>
> The south did have another option, rather than war. It was to
> return to the negotiating table and settle the matter peacefully. If, as
> you say, a previous ship was fired upon, then perhaps we should consider
> the firing on that ship as the opening shot of the war. In either event,
> the south made a distinct choice to commence the war. No matter the
> provocation, one is generally responsible for ones own actions. The
> south
> made a choice for war, and cannot blame Lincoln for their decision.
>
> Anne
>
> At 02:31 AM 2/26/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Ann,
> >
> >Negotiations were underway as Lincoln lied to the delegation from the
> >South, not only SC, in that he would not resupply or reinforce Ft
> Sumter.
> >What was called only a 'supply ship' had several thousand soldiers
> hidden
> >in it's holes, as learned by Conferderate scouts in the North.
> >
> >Betrayed, the South had no other option than to protect itself. They
> did
> >not want war, never did, just to be left alone. It was only after much
> >discussion in the city of Charleston that the order to fire was given.
> >
> >This was not the first time the US flag had been fired on (The Star of
> >the West, a ship that was sent to Ft Sumter about 2 months prior to the
> >actual firing, was fired on by Confederate shore placements), and
> Lincoln
> >in later years, admitted he had forced the hand of the South in order
> to
> >bring the war forward, in order to remain control of the customs house
> at
> >Charleston Harbor. (Ref. "Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White
> >Dream" Berone Benett, Jr; "The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham
> >Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War" Thomas J. Dilorenzo).
> Both
> >these books reference many of those who worked with Lincoln, to include
> >his two secertaries, to back up the fact that Lincoln forced the South
> to
> >'fire the first shot'.
> >
> >Lincoln, whil negoations were underway, lied, planned and dispatched
> the
> >ship from New York, and ensured that the South was fully aware of the
> >resupply ship, with the thousands of soldiers in it's hole.
> >
> >M. Westbrook
> >
> >--- Anne Pemberton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > The fact is that SC chose not to await negotiations in a matter
> under
> > > negotiations, and make the first strike. I do not feel that their
> hand
> > > was
> > > forced, it was an act they chose willingly and eagerly. The action
> > > refutes
> > > the words of Jeff
> > > Davis.
> > >
> > >
> > > Anne
> > >
> > > At 01:44 AM 2/25/03 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >But, the fact lost here is that the South did not rebel, but
> secceeded,
> > > >and the north forced the first hand by attempting to resupply the
> fort
> > > in
> > > >Charleston during discussions with the South and SC; this attempted
> > > >resupply action was against agreements it [Lincoln] had made with
> SC.
> > > >
> > > >By the laws, and legal understandings of the time, seccission was
> > > legal.
> > > >
> > > >In the words of Jefferson Davis.."...all we want is to be left
> alone."
> > > Not
> > > >exactly words of a 'rebel', who wishes to change or overthrow a
> > > >government, neither of which the South aspired to do.
> > > >
> > > >M. Westbrook
> > > >
> > > >--- "Harold S. Forsythe" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > On the face of it, this is not really very convincing. I
> lived in
> > > Los
> > > > > Angeles in
> > > > > 1965 when the National Guard occupied the central parts of the
> > > > > city, supplementing inadequate police power (The LA or Watts
> > > > > "Riot", "Uprising," etc.) Now, these chiefly white soldiers
> were
> > > > > from out of town. Would this then have been a justification to
> take
> > > > > up arms against them?
> > > > > This whole business of "invasion" and "home" requires a
> > > > > prerequisite of political thinking: the South or Virginia as
> home,
> > > > > rather than the United States. Thus, white Unionists in western
> > > > > Virginia, eastern Tennessee, and the Ozark Plateau were being
> > > > > "defended" by Confederate troops, whereas northern Virginia and
> > > > > southern Louisiana were being "invaded" by troops from
> > > > > Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Wisconsin.
> > > > > At the risk of contradiction, I assume that every rebelling
> > > regional
> > > > > group in history imagined that they were fighting for their
> > > > > independence from forces at least alien, if not downright
> > > tyrannical.
> > > > > But such notions do not arise naturally or without effort, they
> are
> > > > > cultivated and spread by a leadership group that expects, and
> > > > > usually achieves leadership of the new nation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Date sent: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 00:59:14 -0800
> > > > > From: Maitland Westbrook <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Gods and Generals
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Send reply to: Discussion of research and writing about
> > > > > Virginia history
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Per Shelby Foote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Union Soldier coming upon wounded Confederate laying on the
> > > > > battlefield:
> > > > > > "Why are you fighting us?!?!?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Confederate's Reply: "Because you are here."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M. Westbrook, III
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
> > > > > > > How about the fact that their homes were being invaded, with
> all
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > that entails. People don't need much more motivation than
> that
> > > to
> > > > > take
> > > > > > > up arms, whether they owned slaves or not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> > > > > > > instructions
> > > > > > > at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > instructions
> > > > > > at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Harold S. Forsythe
> > > > > Assistant Professor History
> > > > > Director: Black Studies
> > > > > Fairfield University
> > > > > Fairfield, CT 06430-5195
> > > > > (203) 254-4000 x2379
> > > > >
> > > > > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> > > > > instructions
> > > > > at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
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> > > >To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> > > instructions
> > > >at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> > >
> > > Anne Pemberton
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > http://www.erols.com/stevepem
> > > http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> > > instructions
> > > at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
>
=== message truncated ===
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