No, Herb, you have retreated from calling them lies. But, it does not change 
the fact that they are not "untruths".

You make a big deal of the fact that TJ admitted to the attempted seduction 
of Mrs. Walker when he was "young and single", yet the evidence presented by 
the Walkers indicated that TJ was about that business even after he had a 
wife at home to relieve his "frustrations". I am wondering how you can 
assert TJ had "integrity" in light of the Walker situation? Not only did he 
engage in discussing and immoral behavior, but he made up a lie to tell his 
own children about why the friendship between the Jeffersons and Walkers had 
cooled in his absence. He made up a story of an unextinguished debt that 
Walker owed him, putting the blame on the victim of his disgusting behavior.

As I read the exchange of letters last night on the Walker, I am wondering 
how anyone could ever again hold Jefferson in esteem.

This afternoon I was doing something I rarely do, and reading through the 
endnotes at the end of the book. I am well convinced that Kukla used all the 
creditable sources both primary sources and sources more recent that 
involved greater scholarship and study than that which was apparently 
undertaken by those you propose as eminant scholars.

Did Kukla find a use for any of the other writings for these "scholars" you 
keep toting? Is there a body of writing on the subject that reflects these 
scholars were intimate with the sources and resources that Kukla used?

When I found Fawn Brodie's book convincing, I was willing to let TJ off the 
hook for his misbehavior with the notion that he had a deep love for Sally 
that he could not express in marriage becauseof the laws of the time. After 
reading Mr. Jefferson's Women, I am no longer inclined to believe Jefferson 
held any true love for his compliant servant, but just the male perrogative 
for dominating women.

I think TJ's admission that the Walker affair happened and the others were 
false allegation was another lie like the one he told about Walker owing him 
money. By your own criteria shared this week, the presence of one lie is 
enough to taint the truth of the rest of what was said. The Walker affair 
became public, and TJ could no longer deny it, so he didn't ... he just 
brushed it aside as a youthful indescretion even though he, and the Walkers 
knew that it continued well into his marriage, making it an attempt at 
adultery on his part. How many other married women with lesser women did he 
successfully seduce before he retired to using Sally as a substitute for 
"unhealthy" masterbation. Sally, at least, could not turn him down as 
Rebecca Burwell and Mrs. Walker did, and she could not have a husband and 
distance intercede to shield her honor as Mrs. Cosway and perhaps Mrs. Adams 
did.

Heb, since you are upset that there are few takers for the "study" provided 
by your Foundation, perhaps with instructions as to the conclusions that 
were reached, perhaps it would be well of you to look over your list of 
"scholars" and find out why these findings aren't worthy of note. Is it 
possible that those you identify as "scholars" either have scholarship in 
other areas, or are lacking in a body of scholarship that makes them 
estimable?

Anne


Anne Pemberton
[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/apembert
http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Herbert Barger" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in 
Barger's opinion


> Anne,
>
> Since you have Kukla's book in hand, look in the index and find the
> name, Randolph Jefferson, WHAT.... it isn't there.... not even the fact
> that TJ invited him to Monticello EXACTLY 9 months prior to Eston's
> birth. Now back to pg. 136, another reference to Sally's having
> conceived Eston late in Aug. 1807, WHY no reference to Randolph? Ever
> wonder why he would move to Wisconsin, pass as white and change his name
> to what...Jefferson? That would surely draw NO questions!
>
> On pg. 137 Jon tells us that "before his liaison with Sally Hemings,
> etc. and following along to "any children Jefferson fathered with Sally
> Hemings would legally be white." Now there is a self explanatory
> statement of law and science, HOWEVER, where is Mr. Kukla's proof that
> TJ EVER fathered a slave child. Again on the same page he informs the
> reader that "Jefferson's children by Sally Hemings as well as Mary
> Hemings children by Thomas Bell, etc." Are you aware that this Mary and
> several slave women were also rumored to have had Thomas Jefferson for
> their children....sounds like some recent claims of fathering by many
> modern day fathers doesn't it? Famous names draw lots of "wantabes" and
> ESPECIALLY if the claim is made AFTER TJ's death.
>
> To further deny the reader of factual research Mr. Kukla again (unless
> my tired eyes have overlooked it) has conveniently "overlooked" the most
> important full review of the Jefferson-Hemings controversy, we find NO
> reference to the findings of the 13 member senior blue ribbon panel of
> Jefferson expert researchers and the Scholars Commission Report
> (www.tjheritage.org). Any person in the study of history will
> immediately recognize these TOP scholars. A great and famous historian
> surely would not overlook this would he? Sounds a bit like what Prof.
> Joseph Ellis told me, even before the Boston Globe exposed him as a liar
> (not my word), about his non-Vietnam and other personal lies they said.
> Ellis told me he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson had a brother,
> Randolph.....hmmmm, are we then asked to believe some of the recent
> books they are publishing. Sure does look like some sort of conspiracy
> and great agenda, in my opinion. On pg.4 you will note that Jon Kukla is
> "careful" to state that DNA had confirmed a genetic relationship between
> "THOMAS JEFFERSON'S FAMILY" (a slight difference I read here, and ONE of
> Sally's children.) Jon Kukla references a Ft. Worth panel of scholars
> discussed the DNA Evidence. If he would just read, no travel involved,
> the research of the Scholars Commission he would get a different
> approach to the controversy. I draw the reader's attention to pg. 52,
> where TJ admitted when young and single he did see Mrs. Walker, HOWEVER
> Jon Kukla says, "Jefferson acknowledged this and TJ said, "the only one,
> founded in truth, among all their allegations against me." This is a
> statement of TJ's condemnation of all of the other past rumors against
> him.
>
> A good time to now mention the motto of the Thomas Jefferson Heritage
> Society, "For here we are not afraid follow truth wherever it may lead,
> no to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."
> (a letter to William Roscoe on Dec. 27, 1820). Mr. Kukla's many uses of,
> "hard to believe", "may well have been", "could easily have", "it is
> possible to imagine", "IF", "it seems unlikely" and more such GUESSING
> terminology, the reader gets the idea. Other than this one admission,
> Jon where are any proofs to back up your Jefferson-Sally statements? On
> pg. 250
> Mr. Kukla brings to our attention the fact that the DNA tests of Peter
> and Samuel Carr were no match....that would be for the only ONE Eston
> Heming descendant, NOT all of her children.....and this is where
> Monticello is remiss in claiming that possibly ALL of Sally's children
> were fathered by TJ. This is impossible to state because of only one
> being tested. I don't believe I saw any reference to the Waverly
> Watchman opposition to the Wetmore/Madison Hemings article...."possibly"
> an oversight!
>
> You accuse me of not clearing my mind and not seeing the big picture.
> You are absolutely incorrect in this shallow assessment. Since day one,
> ten years ago, I have been involved in all phases with this controversy
> and I know many things including the many agendas prevalent and WHY and
> WHO the perpetrators are. Don't these false statements such as I have
> outlined in Kukla's book and the many outlined in the Amazon book
> reviews convince that these are "untruths".........see I didn't say lies
> did I?
>
> Herb Barger
> Jefferson Family Historian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of research and writing about Virginia history
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Anne Pemberton
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:56 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web
> page in Barger's opinion
>
> Herb,
>
> You are not going to like this statement, but I find all the material
> you
> claim to be "untruth" to be quite believable considering all the issues
> involved.
>
> I am now reading Jon Kukla's book and again, find it very logical, well
> reasoned, and quite believable. It is measurably more believable than
> what
> you keep saying. Jefferson seems to have had great difficulty with
> women,
> considering them less worthy overall than men, and suited only to adorn
> a
> house. It's no wonder that the first woman he swooned over, turned him
> down,
> which he seemed to then blame on all the faults of women in general.
> Seems
> that the Walker case, as illustrated in Kukla's book was more than a
> mere
> indiscretion - but an all out effort to debase the wife of a close
> friend.
>
> Herb, it is always better to look at the broader picture. Limiting your
> belief to only scientific testing is limiting your ability to approach
> this
> issue logically.
>
> If you clear your mind of your prejudice, you may be able to let in a
> little
> sunshine and logic.
>
> Anne
>
> Anne Pemberton
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.erols.com/apembert
> http://www.educationalsynthesis.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Herbert Barger" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:41 PM
> Subject: PBS Misrepresentation of the truth on their web page in
> Barger's
> opinion
>
>
>> Anne,
>>
>> Your statement is something from a "perfect world" and has no bearing
> on
>> this immediate subject. Editing is one thing but out and out removal
> of
>> a whole subject, in my opinion, is censorship and PBS did this.
>>
>> Not satisfied with this deletion, I call your attention to the PBS
>> Frontline four video clips where "NOT TRUTH" was told at least on the
>> Paris clip: "Sally came to France with Martha (untruth", it was Mary
>> (Maria). Reference to half-sister (misunderstanding, nothing proves
> this
>> rumor true,   see "Anatomy of a Scandal." Over to another clip,
>> Monticello clip: "Jefferson children with Sally" and "His son,
> Beverly."
>> The only two I viewed was so sickening with untruths that I never
> viewed
>> the other two. Why don't these purveyors of family programming and
> users
>> of taxpayer support, at least research such web pages as, Scholars
>> Commission Report (www.tjheritage.org) and many other factual places
> of
>> information? I encourage all readers contact PBS about this injustice
> to
>> a great founding father.
>>
>> This is so outrageous on a web page that proposes that children read
> and
>> view this stuff for their school programs. I will propose and will
>> insist that PBS correct this "oversight" or should I use stronger
> words?
>>
>>
>> I have no problems with other people's views so long as they are based
>> upon proven facts. Lanier's book and the PBS videos are NOT based upon
>> fact......NOTHING proves Shannon's views that he is a descendant of
>> Thomas Jefferson and the PBS videos have the same problem with
>> truth....NO proof.... yet they mislead the public in this direction.
>>
>> I would advise teachers to refrain from recommending this site for
>> Jefferson information UNTIL they correct these injustices to Mr.
>> Jefferson's character and legacy.
>>
>> As far as the Isaac Jefferson interview (backing Madison's claims), by
>> the same abolitionist, Samuel Wetmore, in another of his series, Life
>> Among the Lowly, A Harriet Beecher Stowe, book, Uncle Tom's Cabin, I
>> urge you to read TJ's grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph's scathing
>> comments on this slave's NON KNOWLEDGE of the issue and the fact that
> he
>> could not have known facts that were attributed to him because of
>> conflicts in his dates of birth, etc. Old Sam Wetmore was determined
> to
>> "bad mouth" TJ from all angles but more researchers are finding him
>> WRONG. As you mention, I don't believe Sam Wetmore could have used a
>> video because, I personally believe that "he may have doctored these
>> articles to his own liking" OR possibly he would have used PBS
>> tactics....just censor it out.
>>
>> You references to PBS editors intentions and editing, "if they were
>> intent on factual presentation", is a laugh because IF they were,
> where
>> did their story "jump the track"......it was NOT factual in several
>> instances.
>>
>> Thanks for your "ill-mannered" and "cocksure" remarks about
> me.....when
>> facts are lacking "always attack the messenger." Your wording
> convinces
>> me of your lack of knowledge of this subject all together.
>>
>> Herb Barger
>> Jefferson Family Historian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb,
>>
>> I am sure that anytime a tv station takes footage that it is submitted
>> to an
>> editorial staff, and slices of film hit the floor. I'm sure you are
>> neither
>> the first nor the last person who was interviewed for a broadcast and
>> never
>> saw themselves appear in the final show. Having read your interview in
>> Lanier's book and comparing it to the other interviews in the book,
> your
>>
>> lacks any sense of humility or consideration for other points of view.
>> If in
>> the PBS interview you referred to people you never met or knew, as
>> LIARS, as
>> you do on this list, it is likely that the editors at PBS may have
>> considered your interview as an invitation to a trouble. If they were
>> intent
>> on a factual presentation, and if your are in person as illmannered
> and
>> cocksure of your "truth" as superior to the "truth" of other
>> researchers,
>> your interview with them was probably a disappointment.
>>
>> In any event, it seems that the PBS site includes the Primary Sources
>> that
>> teachers have a hard time presenting for students in a usable fasion.
>> Certainly, it would have been better had the reporter been able to
> sound
>>
>> record both Madison Hemings and Isaac Jefferson, but that technology
> was
>> not
>> yet available.
>>
>> Anne
>>
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