DEAR FRIENDS,
FORGIVE AND PLEASE TOLERATE MY "SHOUTING".......WHICH, ACTUALLY, I AM NOT
DOING.
I AM , VERY SIMPLY, A POOR TYPIST AND HALF-BLIND TO BOOT.
DFM
P.S.
WHO MADE UP THAT RULE, ANYWAY? THE INTERNET IS SO YOUNG MAYBE IT ISN'T TOO
LATE TO CHANGE IT.
P.P.S. WASHINGTON, EDWARD COLES & JOHN PLEASANTS WERE STILL RACISTS....JUST
LIKE TJ AND EVERYONE ELSE OF THEIR DAY.
JUST KINDER, GENTLER RACISTS.
----- Original Message -----
From: "qvarizona" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: "common-sense Jeffersonian conservative principles"
> Sometimes I agree with you (Paul Finkelman) and sometimes I don't, but I
appreciate someone willing to point out that it's not a good idea to use
Caps when writing email --or anything else, for that matter. I don't mind
the "shouting" as much as I do the fact that it's doggone hard to read!
>
> Joanne
>
>
>
>
> Paul Finkelman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Ms. Mills:
>
> I am not sure what makes you think that; I am simply pointing out that
> in the age of Jefferson there were many people who were willing to do so
> something about slavery and that Jefferson was not one of them;
> thousands of Virginians freed their slaves, for example. Jefferson
> wasnot one of them. Between 1780 and 1810 the free black population of
> Va. grew from about 2,000 to over 30,000. This growth was due to
> private manumissions by thousands of individual Virginians, maybe even
> some of those in your 13 generations in the Commonwealth. Jefferson
> opposed such acts and opposed any measures designed to end slavery; in
> 1820 he opposed a bad on slavery in the western territories.
>
> Racism, as you point out, is a fluid term with a meaning that changes
> over time. TJ was the first American to argue for the innate
> inferiority of blacks. He did so pretty early -- 1783 -- in Notes on
> the State of Virginia; and then he opposed rights for free blacks.
> Similiarly, he opposed private manumission and public emancipation.
> All of this is pretty well known, and should not surprise anyone, just
> as it no longer surprises people that he held his own children in
> slavery as well has his half-sister-in-law (Sally Hemings) and his
> half-brothers-in-law. This may have made him like many other southern
> white men (maybe some of those in your 13 generations) who owned their
> own children and enslaved their relatives. But, many Virginians
> (again, maybe some of those in your 13 generations) did not act that
> way. If you are asking me whether I think Washingon or Edward Coles, or
> John Pleasant, of the countless other Virginians who free their slaves
> are more admirable than Jefferson, the answer is yes. Were all these
> people racial egalitarians according to our social norms. But, were the
> more supprtive of racial fairness than most Virginians -- and more so
> than TJ -- the answer is clearly yes.
>
> One moreo thing, if you are going to respoind, please take your "Caps
> lock" off the computer, as most of the time when someone writes in all
> caps it seems as if the person is yelling on the computer screen. I am
> sure as a 13th generation Virginian you don't intend to me yelling at
> me, but are rather asking good questions about the nature of history.
> (I should add that my son is a first generation Virginian!)
>
> --
> Paul Finkelman
> Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
> University of Tulsa College of Law
> 3120 East 4th Place
> Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
>
> 918-631-3706 (office)
> 918-631-2194 (fax)
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> >MR FINKELMAN,
> >SO, YOU'RE SAYING THAT SOME RACISTS WERE BETTER RACISTS THAN OTHER
RACISTS?
> >DFM
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Paul Finkelman"
>
> >To:
> >Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 6:55 PM
> >Subject: Re: Fw: "common-sense Jeffersonian conservative principles"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Dear Ms. Mills:
> >>
> >>I just posted something along these lines; I guess is has not yet
> >>surfaced; in case it got lost in cyberspace, I append it to this
message.
> >>
> >>=================
> >>
> >>we debate these issues every few years. For a long discussion of how
> >>Jefferson helped invent scientific racism, look at the last two chapters
> >>of my book, SLAVERY AND THE FOUNDERS: RACE AND LIBERTY IN THE AGE OF
> >>JEFFERSON, 2nd ed. 2001. In that book I judge Jefferson by the
> >>standards of his own time; compared to many other founders, Jefferson
> >>does not fare well. I think Jefferson should be judged the standards of
> >>his own time; compare his view on race to those of Washington, Franklin,
> >>Hamilton, Adams, as well as his many European friends, or John and Henry
> >>Laurens in South Carolina, or LaFayette.
> >>As for the Indian removal. I don't have the cite handy but shortly
> >>after buying Louisiana he proposed moving Indians out of hte Southeast
> >>and shipping them west.
> >>
> >>TJ may have believed rocks could not fall from the sky, but he could not
> >>consuct the experiment. He also believed that the blood of blacks was
> >>darker than the blood of whites, that they smelled worse than whites,
> >>and that the were incapable of forming loving relationships like whites.
> >>Over the course of his adult life he owned more than 400 slaves; and he
> >>could certainly have observed many things about them. He sold off more
> >>than 80 in a ten year period (contrast this to Washington who never sold
> >>a slave or Madison who only sold a few to neighbors late in life when he
> >>literally could not afford to maintain them). Surley while selling off
> >>these slaves he would have been able to observe how the slaves felt
> >>about the destruction of their families. Washington said you do not
> >>take men to market like cattle. Jefferson sent scores to market like
> >>cattle. I agree, judge him by the standards of his own world. When his
> >>neighbor Edward Coles wanted to free his slaves, Jefferson told him not
> >>to do it and refused to take a public stand supporting either private
> >>manumissions or gradual abolition. When his friend St. George Tucker
> >>(the law professor at William and Mary and a judge) proposed a scheme
> >>for ending slavery in Va. Jefferson refused to endorse it, or come up
> >>with one of his own.
> >>
> >>Yes, I agree completely. Judge him against the best of his generation.
> >>
> >>
> >>=================
> >>
> >>[log in to unmask] wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>MR FINKELMAN,
> >>>I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO, IN YOUR ILLUSTRIOUS OPINION, MIGHT NOT HAVE
> >>>
> >>>
> >BEEN A "THOROUGH GOING RACIST" OR, FOR THAT MATTER, JUST A PLAIN, LONG,
OLD,
> >REGULAR RACIST, IN THE 18TH CENTURY WESTERN WORLD. DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT IF
> >YOU HAD BEEN ALIVE IN THE 18TH CENTURY, WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF THE
HINDSIGHT
> >OF A 21ST CENTURY PERSON, YOU JUST MIGHT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN A TYPICAL,
> >AVERAGE, NORMAL WHITE MAN WHO PRESUMED, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE (EXCEPT THE
MAN
> >OF COLOR), THAT THE WHITE RACE WAS THE SUPERIOR RACE?
> >
> >
> >>>GIVE ME A BREAK: EVERYONE WAS A THOROUGH GOING RACIST BACK THEN.
> >>>
> >>>
> >EVERYONE!
> >
> >
> >>>DEANE MILLS
> >>>13TH GENERATION (PROVEN) VIRGINIAN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 3:24 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Re: "common-sense Jeffersonian conservative principles"
> >>>he was a thorough going
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>racist, who believed that blacks were mentally inferior to whites,
and
> >>>>>he wanted to remove all Indians to someplace else (like where I
live);
> >>>>>he invented the Indian removal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Unlike modern conservaitves, he believed in balanced budgets and
worked
> >>>>>at them; he was a free trader, except when it came to the Embargo
> >>>>>against Haiti and then Europe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Unlike moderns conservatives, he believed in a small military and
> >>>>>avoided military adventurism whenever possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And, unlike modern Consrvatives and Republicnas, he did, to his great
> >>>>>credit, believe in religious freedom and a strict separation of
Church
> >>>>>and State.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Finally, of course, he believed in racial subordination and slavery.
I
> >>>>>will refrain from commenting on whether that fits with the
> >>>>>administration or Sen. Allen
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Paul Finkelman
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >instructions
> >
> >
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
instructions
> >>>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Paul Finkelman
> >>Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
> >>University of Tulsa College of Law
> >>3120 East 4th Place
> >>Tulsa, OK 74104-3189
> >>
> >>918-631-3706 (office)
> >>918-631-2194 (fax)
> >>
> >>[log in to unmask]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe, please see the
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> >>at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html
> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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