All I said was that we can only speculate who these children belong to. They
could have been TJ's or they could have been someone else's, we just don't
know. For now we don't have the scientific tools to prove who the father of
these children are. Unless some white man claimed them as his own they are
sadly, fatherless.

My romantic side would like to believe that TJ was a tender hearted man who
fell in love with his wife's half sister. But my cynical side grew up
watching politicians turn water hoses on black people in Missisippi who
simply wanted to cast a ballot to vote, watching them gun down college
students on college campuses, and watching a President resign all the while
insisting "I am not a crook". Well this cynical side of me just can't help
but thinking TJ is like all the other politicians. Sure, sure, he did a lot
for the greater good, but IMHO he was an elistist who thought that only
certain "white planter class men" were created equal. He was a victim of his
time. He may have been a free thinker, but he couldn't free himself from the
pressure of his peers. No more than many of us can today. Me included
sometimes. Just bring TJ down off his pedistal. His dignity doesn't need
preservation, Harold. He needs for us to try to learn empathy for his
situation. And this is so hard for us to do, because none of us will ever
understand how anyone can justify holding another person as a slave. If we
could walk a mile in his shoes maybe we could understand him. It's not
dignity our forfathers need from us. Really its our understanding for how
they lived.

Sometimes I think I should not be so judgemental of them because I'm sure
future generations will hold our generation under the microscope also. And I
shudder to think what they might say about us. <grin>

Lonny Watro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Debra Jackson/Harold Forsythe" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: TJ and Sally's kids


> The problem with Lonny Watro's analysis here is that it doesn't take into
> account correlary consequences of the logic.  If true, the TJ spend the
> remaining 34 years of his life celibate and alone;  a practice he is on
> record as opposing for health reasons.  Moreover, with all the white men
> living in the northern Piedmont of Virginia, was it only chance that male
> Jeffersons apparently alone fathered Sally H's babies?  Finally, Tj was
> known as the "Sage of Monticello."  Was he completely blind to these
> goings
> on?  Children running around the place whose father(s) were his kin and
> whose mother was his wife's half-sister.  Was Monticello a bawdy house?
> Was
> this why TJ freed Hemmings and her children only when he died?  You see
> where this is going, don't you?
>    Stick to the romance.  It preserves some dignity for TJ.
>
> Harold S. Forsythe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lonny J. Watro" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:33 PM
> Subject: Re: TJ and Sally's kids
>
>
>> No, but I do believe that when Jefferson came home all his relatives came
>> to
>> his home to visit him. And probably didn't visit his home when he was
>> away.
>> (Because the only reason my mother visits my house when I'm away is to
>> feed
>> my cat) Since Jefferson had over see-ers he had no need to ask his family
>> to
>> come over while he was away, IMHO. So I can believe that Jefferson came
>> home
>> and said "Hey Uncle Fields, why don't you come on over for dinner now
>> that
>> I
>> am home." That I do believe. And so you see that's why we can't say
>> definitely who these children belong to. We can only speculate, IMHO.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Finkelman" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:12 PM
>> Subject: TJ and Sally's kids
>>
>>
>>> Sally Hemings only had children 9 months after she was in close
>>> proximity to Jefferson; she never had children when she was not close to
>>> Jefferson for more than 9 months.To believe your theory, you would have
>>> to believe that whenever Thomas Jefferson was away from Monticello that
>>> Sally Hemings remained celebate, but as soon as Thomas was around, she
>>> immediately had sex with one of his relatives.  I can see it now, TJ
>>> arrived in Va after weeks or months in Philadelphia or Washington, and
>>> immediately contacts his Uncle Fields and say, "hey, Uncle Fields, come
>>> on over and visit Sally, now that I am home."   Do you really believe
>>> this?  If you believe this, then I am sure you would be interested in
>>> the bridge I have for sale.
>>>
>>> But, assume you are right.  Sally is Jefferson's half-sister-in-law.  No
>>> one doubts that Sally is the daughter of John Wayles and Bette Hemings.
>>> So, Thomas owns his half-sister-in-law.  Furthermore, if the children
>>> were fathered by TJ's male relatives then they are his neices and
>>> nephews or cousins.  So, both by blood (through the father) and by
>>> marriage (through his marraige to Martha Wayles Skelton) Sally's
>>> children are his relatives.  So, here we have a man who owns his double
>>> relatives as slaves.
>>>
>>> Now maybe that is the role model for Senator Allen!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul Finkelman
>>> Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
>>> University of Tulsa College of Law
>>> 3120 East 4th Place
>>> Tulsa, OK   74104-3189
>>>
>>> 918-631-3706 (office)
>>> 918-631-2194 (fax)
>>>
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kathleen Much wrote:
>>>
>>>>Whoa, whoa, whoa. PLEASE don't let us rehash the Jefferson/Hemings
>>>>claims and counter-claims. For the record, the original headline
>>>>accusing Thomas Jefferson of siring Sally Hemings's children was NOT
>>>>supported by evidence in the _Nature_ article itself and was retracted
>>>>by the journal. I recommend that anyone wishing to weigh in on the
>>>>subject read the whole article first.
>>>>
>>>>All anyone can say from the DNA evidence is that SOME Jefferson male,
>>>>possibly Thomas or his nephew, sired ONE of Sally's children. Beyond
>>>>that, all is speculation.
>>>>
>>>>Now let's return the list to other historical topics.
>>>>
>>>>Kathleen Much
>>>>The Book Doctor
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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