On Jun 14, 2007, at 6:53 PM, macbd1 wrote:
> Paul,
>
> With the Muslim slave trade occurring over 14 centuries, and
> considering the ultra-low survival rate of slave transportation
> from East Africa to the Middle-East,
The vast numbers of captives overcame the low survival rate. That it
kept going until the 19th century in full bloom is enough to show the
"success" of the practice.
> the castration of most male slaves
That may not be the case. Pellow's account appears to have a fairly
low castration rate from the general reading.
> and murder of slaves' newborns,
Again, that may not be the case. Slave children grow to be adult
slaves and a benefit to the owner so there would be no real benefit
to infanticide. No doubt, it was practice in places.
> I'm wondering how slaves and their children were 'incorporated into
> society' in any meaningful number when slave-descendants are
> apparently scant in the Middle-East.
Pellow's account is the typical version. Women as the spoils of war
were assigned to males, slaves or not, depending upon circumstances,
in Pellow's account. That is something as old as mankind apparently.
In North American NA society, as well as elsewhere where
enthnographic accounts have been recorded, raids to capture women and
adolescents who might be "adopted" by the tribe was a means of
avoiding in-breeding that became common practice. The practice
appears to have been world-wide with the women ill-equipped to resist
at all. Pellow records those particular horrors in 18th century
Morocco. That would be how societal incorporation would be
accomplished via the second generation. Certainly some eunuchs, whole
males (Pellow for instance) and females rose to occupy positions of
relative power within Islamic society, all depending upon personal
circumstances and abilities to overcome (at least within the
circumstances) the worst-case scenarios compared with their former
lives.
Other posts have posited that slaves were happy, while others have
questioned that it was possible. All of us who study the past tend to
clump people into categories to make what are essentially
quantifiable assertions. BUT, at the personal level, there are those
who will never willingly live as slaves, those who will go along
because there are no alternatives at the moment, and those who are
happy to get 3 squares a day and clothing and as long as they keep
their heads below the parapet, subsume their feelings into
acquiescence. That is just plain human nature. Whether they are
Soviets who would rather live with the uncertainties of the Siberian
tiaga, African slaves who left to be among the Cherokee, the
Seminoles or whoever, or the Jewish resistance in WWII, those folks
cannot be broken. Killed, yes, but broken, never. They were the
living embodiment of the "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire state
motto. There were other folks who were essentially followers and
still others a small minority that were actively abetting the owner
caste. Finding enough of any of those types of folks at the two
extremes in the historic record is "an interesting challenge", one
would think.
Lyle Browning, RPA
> I won't be visiting the Middle-East and can't imagine how I would
> be able to see for myself how this was accomplished over such a
> long timespan. Can you tell me what timeframe of the 14 centuries
> you are addressing and a little more detail as to how I could
> readily see this in today's light? I must admit I was being
> facetious when I wrote the parenthetical remark while thinking of
> another's recent posting. I do know that a few eunuchs who rose to
> high government or military positions were apparently highly
> respected.
>
> Thanks for any help toward better understanding of the Muslim slave
> trade that existed alongside the Trans-Atlantic trade to the
> Americas including Virginia, and how they contrasted while having a
> common African origin.
>
> Neil McDonald
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Heinegg"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] Islamic Slavery (was Re: Slavery and immoral
> stance, etc.)
>
>
>> Neil McDonald wrote, "While many children were born to slaves in
>> the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in
>> Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves
>> that ended up in the Middle East survive. (Maybe they were just
>> "incorporated into society," huh??)"
>>
>> --------------
>> I do not want to defend Muslim slavery since my reading of
>> "Islam's Black Slaves" totally disgusted me. And I disagree with
>> the author of that book calling what was wholesale rape "household
>> slavery" and "concubinage," but anyone who visits the Middle East
>> can see for himself that their slaves were incorporated into society.
>>
>> Saudi Arabia resisted emancipation as did the American South. The
>> difference is that no one forced Saudi to stop.
>> Paul
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