Anne, to continue after a very nice weekend, I understand even more now that 
your 'quote' supposedly by TJ as a *teenager*, but more accurately from his 
collection of literary excerpts in his Literary Commonplace Book, a 'quote' 
that you say is only from your memory, not directly from Kukla's book..... 
and this is your supposed "damning evidence" against TJ...?

My introducing politics into our discussion is certainly not a sucker punch 
for you to shrug off to readers. It is instead very pertinent to the 
'Cultural Wars' in our nation, and specifically for disussion at VA-HIST, 
concerning the rather small academic group that is leading a frontal attack 
against Thomas Jefferson and his great contributions to the founding and 
growth of our United States of America. In fact, James D. Hunter, Professor 
of Sociology and Religious Studies at the University of Virginia has much to 
say about this in his book, _Cultural Wars: the Struggle to Define 
America_ -- that there is a battle raging between 'traditionalists' 
(conservatives if you will) who are committed to moral ideals inherited from 
the past, and 'progressivists' (liberals) who idealize change and 
flexibility (even toward revising our nation's history.)  Hunter says, 
"these debates concerning the wide range of social institutions amount to 
*_a struggle over the meaning of America."_* (emphasis added.)

Hunter goes on during a 2006 debate arranged by the PEW Research Foundation 
to seemingly point his finger directly at VA-HIST's battleground and the 
academic-elite attackers of TJ:

"What I have left out of this empirical part so far is the role of elites, 
the political professionals, the special interest leaders. The critics of 
the Culture Wars hypothesis tend to minimize their role or to dismiss it all 
together. I find the role of elites to be extremely important, and it's 
precisely because of the disproportionate role that they play in framing 
public discussion. It's they who lead the institutions, who have the 
resources available to them, who have a disproportionate access to the 
media. It is their sound bites that frame the debate. From my vantage point, 
the power of culture is the power to define reality, the power to frame the 
debate, and that power resides among the elites. But they are supported in 
concentric circles by increasingly large numbers, though of less and less 
passion."

What is not included here with regard to the attacks on TJ, and their 
attempted impact on how our nation's history is perceived, is the 
mis-information used by these academic elitists, their mis-stating of facts, 
their mis-leading of the general public, and repeating these 'misses' so 
many times that even Dr. Hardwick seems confused in his attempt at a 
conclusion (let's just compromise at TJ fathering 'some' of SH's 
children) -- while some of the general public now 'know' (with absolute 
certainty) that TJ fathered 'all' of SH's children, whether that be 6, 7 or 
whatever -- because that's what these academics have told them so many 
times -- and that DNA evidence proves it!(NOT, not even as to one child.) 
Whether or not the public, or even a majority of academia, will go along 
with a complete revision of our nation's history, its foundation and 
perception of our founders' images and beliefs, and in what context, is yet 
to be seen -- recalling attack-leader Joseph Ellis speaking pejoratively 
about TJ being "the dead white male who matters most" (to tear down) as "the 
most valued trophy in the cultural wars" (today but what's next.)

In case you may wonder, I have no connection to/with Herb Barger or 
tjheritage.org.  In fact, he was likely surprised to see this staunch a 
supporter show up at a leftist academics' forum (for the most part.)  Like 
you, Anne, I am not a professional historian; instead retired from an 
entirely different technical/managerial career.  My interest is to address 
some wrongs that I see in our world and this one readily caught my eye 
several months ago at VA-HIST with American history being one of my keen 
interests.  This led to some serious research and here I am.  There is much 
more to this TJ issue than counting the number of SH's children and 
speculating about their father(s?)  Btw, we've counted at least two of the 
latter, ya know, so far, if you believe the DNA evidence, that Ellis tried 
to wash-away in the second instance, but he wanted to keep the one instance 
and s-t-r-e-t-c-h it to include a given name.

Finally, a little DWM / TJ levity or irony :

http://www.theblackrepublican.net/archives/002868.html

Neil McDonald

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anne Pemberton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [VA-HIST] ANSWERS - Annette Gordon-Reed


> snip
> I did not quote Jon Kukla with book in hand, but from memory reading it in 
> recent months. Whether or not in the many small print pages at the end of 
> the book which I typically do not read, he specified exactly in what 
> condition the materials were, I cannot say. He did say that it was written 
> when Tom was a teenager and trying to come to grips with a value system 
> for meeting his personal needs.
> snip

______________________________________
To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at
http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-hist.html